On this episode transcript of the Psychedelic Passage podcast Joël Brierre, founder of Kaivalya Kollectiv, joins forces with our co-founders, Jimmy Nguyen and Nicholas, to discuss the medicinal power of 5-MeO-DMT. They describe the difference between 5-MeO-DMT and Bufo alvarius, outlining why 5-MeO-DMT is arguably the most powerful hallucinogen known to exist.
Joël explains why he’s found the multi-day container model to be the most therapeutic option for embarking on a 5-MeO-DMT experience and describes how the ‘God Molecule’ can help us resolve innate human suffering by loosening rigidity of the self.
They’ll also offer insight into the typical screening process for prospective journeyers and how you can decide if a 5-MeO-DMT experience is right for you, including contraindicated medications you should look out for.
Later they’ll provide tips on how to best prepare for a journey with this psychedelic substance and how to maximize the therapeutic value of the experience through trust, surrender, and by seeking a qualified facilitator.
To close out, our hosts will unravel the spiritual emergence often accompanied by a 5-MeO-DMT experience, and its relation to yogic, Vendentic, and Zen-thinking frameworks.
Episode 12 – Joël Brierre, Founder of Kaivalya Kollectiv
Jimmy: Welcome to The Psychedelic Passage Podcast. My name is Jimmy Nguyen and this is my fellow co founder and co host, Nicholas. Thanks for joining us. This week, we’re very excited to have our first guest on The Psychedelic Passage Podcast. We have Joël Brierre of Kaivalya Kollectiv. And we will be talking about a lot of different topics.
But primarily, we’ll be chatting about 5-MeO-DMT Bufo Alvarius and also the different ways, tips, tricks, actionable information for folks who are interested in journeying with this specific medicine, how to go about doing so, not only safely, but in an ethical and effective way that makes sense for their own healing journey.
So, a little bit about Joel. Joel is the founder of Kaivalya Kollectiv. Within that, Kollectiv is Tandava Retreats with their flagship retreat center in Mexico.
In addition to that, Kaivalya Kollectiv holds 5-MEO education, which is an educational platform discussing all of the benefits, risks, scientific research, actionable practices, tips, anything that you can gain from learning about 5-MeO-DMT and how to engage properly.
Formerly, I believe you grew up in Washington, D.C., spent a little bit of time in Los Angeles, and then also traveled the world as well. Living in ashrams in India, gathering and gaining your yogic practice, also apprenticing under curanderos in Peru.
So, we definitely have a very worldly guest for our first guest here on The Psychedelic Passage Podcast. So, Joel, welcome. Really great to have you here with us.
Joel: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Great to be here.
Jimmy: I know that a lot of your focus lately has been with 5-MeO-DMT and Bufo Alvarius. Just to get to learn a little bit more about you before we dive into actionable items for our listeners. How did you progress from your relationship with plant medicines into 5-MeO-DMT and why does that become the medicine of choice for you and your work with your clients?
Joel: Thank you, thank you. I was a huge psychonaut back in the 90s. I’m very, very fond of all psychedelics. However, in the 90s, I was also into all other substances as well.
I went through my fair bit of knucklehead injury trauma back then and I found my healing in the early 2000s via yoga and meditation. And during right before that, I had gotten cleaned off of all substances, including psychedelics.
But then I reapproached plant medicines in around 2007. But this time, they were reintroduced to me by my two teachers. And this time reentering that space, but having some system or geography of self-inquiry, such as yoga, yogic philosophy.
It was a completely different understanding and a completely different experience. And so, from there, I got to study under a lot of amazing people around the world and got to have a lot of different growth experiences.
I found myself leading retreats around 12 years ago and then incorporating medicines into them, probably around seven years ago. I was really initiated into 5-MeO-DMT around that time. I tried it for the first time back in ’99 but didn’t even really remember my experience.
There was no container, there was no effort. We didn’t even know the difference between 5-MeO-DMT and N,N-DMT then. And so, I don’t really consider it my first time. But this time, I went and I had that full, grand, mystical experience that completely captivated me.
At that time, I was serving N,N-DMT ceremonially. I had a very deep relationship with that medicine, but this one just rocked my world. This one completely took the cake.
And having a background in yoga, I recognize that peak experience to be what the yogis would call nirvikalpa samadhi or what the Buddhists would call nirvana. And it was that state of consciousness that can be reached when finding absolute stillness or a complete cessation of the mind.
One of the first things I thought when I came out of that experiences was , well, If everyone in the world was able to try this medicine, there would be no war, there would be no suffering, because we all are innately suffering as human beings from some feeling of separation, some feelings of unworthiness, or not being truly whole and to have a real palpable experience of our true wholeness is something that is deeply cathartic and deeply healing.
And so, I became fairly obsessed with 5-MeO-DMT from there and began researching the hell out of it. And a while later, I began to take the steps to learn how to become a carrier of this medicine. And I reached out to a few people, who were soon to become mentors of mine and they showed me the ropes and switching over my DMT practice to a 5-MeO practice.
And around that time, especially, because retreats were already my niche, I would say, it was very obvious to me that the retreat or the multiday container was the best fit for working with 5-MeO-DMT, because it allows participants to completely step out of their regular world.
And that was what really did it for me. So, that takes us here. Here we are. I am firmly of the belief that 5-MeO-DMT can help us resolve the innate conflicts and suffering that we have within ourselves. So, we no longer have to take our own suffering out on our neighbors and to our fellow humans.
Choosing if 5-MeO-DMT is Right For You
Jimmy: Hmm. Yeah, I really appreciate what you’re saying about it helps us to resolve instead of resolves for us, which I think is a really big part of any sacrament with psychedelic medicines.
And for those listeners out there, you’re probably already having a few questions about the difference between Bufo Alvarius and 5-MeO-DMT, of which Bufo Alvarius is the secretions of a specific toad of which contains 5-MeO-DMT, but also a number of different psychedelic compounds.
And I believe there’s maybe even 12 other known psychedelic compounds within the secretion of the toad of which 5-MeO-DMT can also have a synthetic source as well, a pure 5-MeO-DMT, which then differs from N,N-DMT, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, which does seem to be the more prevalent conversation here.
But just to really note that though, they’re all related as tryptamines. They’re very, very different. I understand that within your retreat work, clearly, you have to do a lot of screening, vetting, making sure that the folks who do come to your retreat center are offered a safe container.
Can you talk through a little bit of– Let’s say, I’m a listener here on this podcast or I’m just curious about 5-MeO-DMT. What are the things that should be on my radar as I’m trying to discern whether this particular medicine is right for me or not?
Joel: Beautiful question. Firstly, just understanding that 5-MeO-DMT is a big commitment. It’s a very, very powerful experience. We can definitely say that it is the most powerful of the psychedelic compounds experientially wise.
And so, firstly, asking ourselves, what are our intentions going into working with this medicine? Are we just looking for an experience? And if so, are we prepared for the implications that come with having a full-blown experience like that?
Are we looking for healing? If so, are we willing to put in the work through the preparation and integration process? So, it’s very important that people looking to do this medicine understand what they’re getting themselves into.
This can definitely be a life shifting experience, but it can also be a life shattering experience. Taking care to make sure that you’re going into the right type of container for this medicine is really, really important.
Making sure that whoever you’re going to sit with has a preparation protocol that they have a screening and intake protocol, making sure that they have an integration protocol as well.
We begin our process with screening in us, screening and intake making sure that essentially, we’re not going to harm you in any way by serving you this compound, making sure you’re not on any contraindicated medications that may interfere with the process, making sure that there are no existing mental conditions that may be aggravated by this experience, making sure that there’s no heart conditions that could result in even death.
First thing is safety. Setting that solid foundation down and then getting to know you. Getting to know you as a participant. Why are you looking to come to this medicine, how can we be of service to you? As I mentioned before, some people are looking for an experience.
These are spiritual seekers or explorers of consciousness and want to have this big peak mystical experience. Some people are coming, who are innately suffering or deeply suffering from things like treatment-resistant depression, acute anxiety, trauma, etc.
Getting to feel into what kind of attention what kind of container you need as an individual. And then we start the preparation process. We’d like to prep with you at least two weeks before your arrival.
And we spend that time getting to understand what’s alive in your process, getting to understand how we can best hold space for you, getting to understand what language is that you’re comfortable with.
And that sense, some people are on their spiritual journey and like those type of lenses and languages speaking through whether yogic, or hermetic, or New Age philosophy, any of it. Some people are more appreciative of the clinical lens.
Getting to understand what type of languages make you feel comfortable, because at the end of the day, this container is about you. It’s not about us as a company or us about practitioners trying to bring you into a specific belief system.
It’s about us meeting you where you’re at and being there for your process. So, that whole preparation process not only gives us a chance to get to know you and get to understand how we can set up your container, but it also allows you to begin that system of self-inquiry, and to dive in and see what areas of our inner world may present resistance during the experience.
It gives us time to go in and start preparing our mind for this experience, because what separates 5-MeO-DMT from all other psychedelics is that in its peak experience, it can result in a complete dissolution of the individual sense of self.
We hear this term, ego death thrown around a lot. But it’s usually thrown around without a real understanding of what this actually means. And for there to be an actual ego death or actual ego dissolution, physically, it’s the default mode network quieting in the brain.
The parts of the brain that give us the experience of being a separate, unique, individual human, those go offline, and our sense of subject object relationship dissipates, and we are left to experience ourself as pure, boundless, unadulterated awareness, or pure consciousness.
And that’s why this medicine as the nicknamed the God Molecule. But in that process, that is a death process. And so, quite often, we’ve not taken the time to prepare ourselves for the fact that we may feel our sense of self dissolving away quite rapidly and that the mind might think that we’re dying during this-
-It is very important to give attention to, very important for people to be prepared for that, because if we’ve got no sense of understanding that there is awareness on the other side of the mind and that our whole sense of reality can completely shut down, and then we can return from this.
That’s a notion that isn’t in the back pocket of every single psychonaut. So, some people may not realize this, and then they take a pipe, and then a few seconds in, they feel themselves completely dissolving when their mind thinks they’re about to die.
And so, their mind says, “Oh, man, if I don’t hold on with everything I’ve got, I’m never coming back.” Or, “If I don’t hold on with everything I can, I’m going to die.” And so, they can end up resisting the experience so hard that they pull themselves out and actually give themselves a traumatic experience.
The preparation process is not only for us to learn how to create a container for you, but it’s also for you to be able to prepare your psyche for the immense experience that is coming your way.
And for you to be able to be prepared, so you can not only get the most out of it, but that you can surrender easily into the experience and get to witness one of the greatest and most profound remembrance as a human being can have.
And a lot of that goes into sense of safety. The preparation period is very important for establishing a sense of safety and a sense of trust, because the last thing a mind thinks before it goes offline is, “Am I in a safe place to completely relinquish control?
Am I in a safe place to completely lose control?” And if we haven’t taken the steps to really tick all of those boxes, then there’s going to be a lot more resistance than needs to be.
For us, setting the container here, but the retreat is all about allowing you to feel safe and allowing you to feel held as a participant through this whole process. Knowing that stepping into the unknown is some of the most confrontational work a human being can engage in.
And there are few things more that can be more fearful than stepping up to the plate to take a pipe with this. So, really speaking to that and just creating a nurturing, welcoming, warm environment, where participants feel held and to where they know that they’re going to be supported both before, during, and after. And yeah, I think that might have been a long-winded response to that question.
Jimmy: There’s a lot of good nuggets of truth within that. And I’m hearing that it’s not only the container that is set surrounding a journeyer, but also the container that the journeyer can set for themselves, and the tools and skills and perspective to walk in knowing that.
I was giggling to myself, as you were saying that term, ego death gets thrown around quite a bit. And I think that it gets tossed around quite feverishly in our society. There’s a lot of folks who are like, “I want to kill the ego. I want to destroy that thing. I want to– so on and so forth.” And then I’m like, “Okay, well, then how do you operate in this world, when you come back?”
Nick: Never going to go to the bathroom, never going to put pants on, never going to do anything that requires functioning.
Jimmy: [laughs] Yeah.
Joel: [laughs] Exactly.
Jimmy: Yeah. I appreciate what you’re saying. It sounds like some of the main things that you do with your screening are getting an idea of medical health. I think you mentioned cardiac issues, mental health, medications or medical contraindications there.
I know in some of your past interviews that you’ve mentioned CPTSD, OCD, and you had also mentioned folks who are really attached to their belief systems or their systems of the self, which I refer to as rigidity of the mind or rigidity of the self.
Is it all mental health conditions that would preclude you from exploring 5-MeO-DMT or are there certain ones that you do work with and maybe there are certain ones that are a real no go for folks?
Medical Contraindications to 5-MeO-DMT
Joel: Good question. Yeah, I would say a lot of it is actually a gray area and really it depends case to case. As we’ve mentioned, I’ve spoken a lot about how a combination of complex PTSD and OCD might not be the best candidate.
That being said, we just had someone here two weeks ago, who has suffered from PTSD, along with OCD. And it really depends from participant to participant. The main factor there is their willingness to allow, their willingness to surrender.
Sometimes, let’s say, someone has some complex PTSD and they suffer from OCD as well. And let’s say that they are very stuck or very firmly holding on to their idea of what their specific condition is and very firmly holding on to their sense of needing to be in control, and are quite sure that they do need to be in control, then that may arise a little bit of complication.
If they understand that they have problems releasing control, but are willing to approach a situation, where they will no longer have control, that’s something we can work with. But if there was already a preset resistance, it’s going to bring up some complications.
And there’s a lot of other conditions that we might not accept here at our center, but I refer them out to another, someone else who’s working with this medicine in more of a clinical setting.
This medicine has been very successful for combat veterans with severe PTSD. However, as we do not always have a clinical psychologist on site who is prepared to handle that type of situation, it’s not something that we really take on here. But there are groups that are working with these specific conditions and with the specific groups that we would always refer out to.
The main things are medications. There’s a lot of contraindicated medications with this one. SSRIs, SNRIs, CYP2D6 inhibitors, things like that can either cause serotonin toxicity or serotonin syndrome, things like that that we look out for.
And it’s not that someone is necessarily canceled out from being able to participate with this medicine, but we would have them work with their primary care physician to first determine, if it is safe for them to taper off the medicine temporarily. If so, to do so with the help of their physician, things like that just to make sure that we– [crosstalk]
Jimmy: Yeah. It has to be a part of the conversation, at least.
Joel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Certain things that we would really ixnay out I would say, borderline personality disorder can be a bit of a tricky one here. Schizophrenia. Schizophrenia and recent psychotic break or history of psychosis.
That’s one that can definitely be triggered with this medicine. That’s one we generally refer out to a different medicine. There’s going to be some different protocols and approaches here that will be more likely to assist them than 5-MeO-DMT.
Joel: Yeah, I hear you. This is the answer that many of our clients hate to hear, which is, it all depends on the individual and there’s a lot of gray area, where in our society, people do view psychedelics as this potential cure all or this hope that they haven’t seen in a very long time.
And that can create a lot of pressure on whether folks will qualify or not qualify for a specific medicine or a specific experience. And it’s so, so, so dependent on the individual. It’s certainly not a one size fits all there. Yeah, so, thanks for sharing that, because for some folks tapering off of medications is a possibility with advisement of your prescribing professional.
For some other folks, that will cause way too much instability in your life, which actually can be counterintuitive to grounding and healing with the use of psychedelics.
Joel: Exactly.
Jimmy: And so, we follow along with a lot of those same practices as far as, at least having a conversation about all of these things and so.
Joel: Yeah.
Should Your First Psychedelic Experience be With 5-MeO-DMT?
Nick: Joel, I’ve got a question for you. You’ve talked a lot about our relationship with controlling our sense of self, our rigidity of ego structure, some of these things. And we talk about this a lot with our clients as well.
But a lot of folks aren’t even aware of how much they’re holding on to until everything’s been taken offline before. So, the question, this comes up for me is like, well, do you suggest that a first timer explore something like 5-MeO-DMT?
Do you suggest they sit with psilocybin first, so that they start to have experiences in altered states, they start to see themselves with some reduction of default mode network?
Joel: It’s a good question. And I would say my answer has shifted over the years, where previously I would have said, yes. Now, surprisingly enough, I would say, at least 90% of our participants here at the center are complete virgins to psychedelics and plant medicines.
A lot of them have never even smoked cannabis. What’s odd about this is that amongst all of our colleagues in the 5-MeO space, I think we are pretty much the only center, the only practitioners really taken on this type of group, where most of our colleagues who are serving five, their average participant is someone who has already experienced in other medicines is working their way up.
Whereas nowadays, as psychedelics are being framed into the mainstream is something for mental health and then 5-MeO is getting this reputation of being this fast-acting powerful thing, people are doing the research and seeing this and reaching out to us.
And it’s very interesting, where a couple of years ago I’d have a lot of apprehension about serving someone who was new to psychedelics, where now most of our participants are and we’re actually finding that it can even be an advantage.
As long as there’s a container with proper preparation, it can be an advantage that they haven’t already had an experience with something else that’s affecting the default mode network, because as five effects, it’s so rapidly and so much more powerful.
If they have no expectations or no idea what to expect, it can almost help the resistance. It can almost make it not as much of a shock, if that makes any sense.
Jimmy: No, it does.
Joel: [crosstalk] still looking at. But yeah.
Jimmy: Yeah, it does, because we talk to our clients a lot about comparison mode, where folks are either comparing against trip reports or comparing against what they hear from their friends, colleagues, whatever, who’ve had psilocybin experiences or just comparing to pass psilocybin experiences or this idea of expectations.
And so, having a blank slate actually seems to me that can be a potential benefit for folks. But what I’m hearing in your answer is that individuals are much more educated around their approach to 5-MeO-DMT or maybe just psychedelics in general having more research available to them, having more friends and families that they’re hearing stories from, just having more just access to information.
And then I would imagine that your container has evolved over time to be better suited from the screening standpoint to the emphasis on prep and integration.
I’m curious, do you have folks who clear your screening, who get into the prep, but then at some point into prep or something, you’re now identifying something new, or maybe they’re disclosing something new, or based on their presentation you then find out, “Okay, maybe this isn’t the right approach for you.” Does that happen and then how do you navigate that?
Joel: That does vary slightly, occasionally happen. It’s something that happens, but it’s something that is very important that as practitioners, we honor and listen to that voice and that shy away from it, because we’ve already taken a deposit and gotten into the prep process.
If some red flags are coming up, it always behooves us as practitioners to investigate those. And so, one potential action that we would take there is, we’re teamed up with Halogen, the biotech company out of Canada. And sometimes, we use their saliva swabs.
We can have a swab sent to their house. And let’s say, we’re having some fear about their mental stability. And let’s say, we’re getting some warning signs of a psychotic break. We get a swab sent to their house. It’d just come in a prepackaged envelope for them. And it wouldn’t cost them a dime. They could do a little saliva swab, put it right back, and have it sent back.
And we can know through those tests, if they have any propensity towards serotonin syndrome, if they have a sensitivity towards serotonin agonist psychedelics, or if they have a psychotic break on their horizons beginning to cook up. So, that’s always useful information with us.
Or, just being candidly honest with them and just saying, “Some stuff that’s coming up, we’re feeling that this process might actually aggravate or exacerbate what they’ve got going on.” And so, making appropriate referring them.
A lot of times, especially if it’s trauma induced or something where we’re having some fear about destabilizing a participant, referring them out to an MDMA therapist or something like that first or referring them out to someone else who can give them the care that they need at this time before they may take this big step.
Jimmy: To try to find a different outlet for them, if you find that your programming and your retreat center isn’t the right fit for them. And I imagine that we can talk for many, many hours about psychedelics, and 5-MeO-DMT, and Bufo, and all the like, but I know that we are getting close to approaching our time.
Can 5-MeO-DMT Lead to Spiritual Emergence?
Nick: I want to jump in with one last question, if anyone that’s listening here. With this particular medicine, I know in particular that I’ve had a couple of friends who have had spiritual emergencies and things that can be like one degree off from a psychotic break.
And to me, the big difference there is support. But yes, do you find the same propensity for this medicine to lead to spiritual emergence is also what makes it so powerful?
Joel: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is a medicine that can quite often induce spiritual emergence/emergency.
And if we put this up against the frameworks of yogic, or vedantic, or Chinese Zen thinking, we come up with these same similarities, where these big stages of awakening feel like a psychotic break. It feels like you’re going crazy.
There’s an entire falling away process, where all of our outer world, all of our external world that may have been a reflection or an echo of our internal suffering begins to fall away, because we’ve resolved some things in here.
You can feel like you’re going crazy. One of my favorite teachers, Adyashanti, says, “Enlightenment is a destructive process. And so, arming participants with that knowledge and understanding and letting them know beforehand that, “Hey, even if this is the most blissful, beautiful experience of your life, there may still be some turbulence in the integration process. Here’s how we’re going to support you and here’s the steps you can take to keep some semblance of sanity through it.”
But yeah, that was a great question. It’s definitely something we see and something that the container is aimed at assisting them with. And then each participant from our Retreats gets assigned an integration specialist, who works with him for four weeks afterwards as well via remote Zooms. And so, all of them are specialists who would have a familiarity with spiritual emergence and emergency.
Jimmy: Yeah. And in the work of Stan and Christina Grof, they described that the difference between a spiritual emergence versus a spiritual emergency is the type of support and the level of support that you get.
And for folks who do experience some challenge and difficulty via a spiritual emergence, I really recommend folks to look up the work of Stan a Christina Grof. They have highlighted this quite prolifically over the past several decades.
This is a process that can take days, weeks, months, years in unsupported areas. And so, just understanding that this is potentially a dynamic process.
And I love that you name your retreat centers Tandava Retreats, which is the dance of Shiva, which is the destruction which makes way for the creation of the new. And so, I really, really appreciate that.
As we wrap up Joel, maybe you can give our listeners the three most important tips. If they’re interested in 5-MeO-DMT, I know you’ve talked at length about screening, we’ve talked about all of that.
I know in some of your other interviews and articles, you’ve talked about how important it is to find a well-qualified, and seasoned, and experienced 5-MeO-DMT facilitator.
So, if there were three things, tangible things, actionable things that you can share with folks who are interested in psychedelics, but maybe more so 5-MeO-DMT, well, what would you share with them?
Joel: I’d say, firstly, doing research and making sure that this is the medicine that is calling to you. Making sure that you are specifically seeking what 5-MeO-DMT can allow us to experience rather than just saying, “Oh, I’m into psychedelics. Oh, this is one I want to try this one” making sure this is the experience you’re looking for.
Researching and understanding what the potentialities are from taking this journey. Then researching your facilitator endlessly, ask them lots of questions. And if you don’t know what to ask them, just go to our resources page on the five platforms and there is what to ask your facilitator.
And getting to first make sure that there’s no malpractice allegations out around them. Making sure that they’ve taken the time to really work on themselves before trying to become a facilitator. We’ve got a lot of people these days that just want to become a teacher and want to be in charge, but don’t want to take the steps to really work on themselves first.
So, make sure that they are holding this medicine with integrity, make sure that they’ve got a plan to keep you safe through it, make sure that there is an emergency protocol, just make sure that they’ve got a container for you.
And then third, prepare your integration. First, make sure that there’s integration support, but also a nesting period is always advised after this medicine. If you can take, at least, three days afterwards to really allow yourself to just before going right back into the throes of the daily life, it can do worlds of wonder.
As the mind is still attempting to compartmentalize something that is completely ineffable and it allows us just to be in that process, rather than to try and apply it to real life things right away. Allow this integration to take hold within ourselves is very, very important.
Jimmy: That’s amazing. Yeah, thank you for the wisdom there and trying to add a tangible aspect to it as well. You can find more of Joel’s work at Kaivalya Kollectiv. That’s spelled K-A-I-V-A-L-Y-A. Kollectiv is spelled K-O-L-L-E-C-T-I-V.
And then within that there’s Tandava Retreats, and then also the educational platform that I mentioned before, which is five-meo.education. And there’s FAQs and all types of great information there. So, thank you, thank you, thank you to our guest, Joel.
And that concludes this episode of the Psychedelic Passage podcast. You can download episodes of our podcast, look for all of our episodes by going to CannabisRadio.com or subscribing to the show on Apple Podcast, Amazon, Spotify, IHeartRadio, and anywhere else that you get your podcast.
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