Defining “the work” in psychedelic therapy has become a prominent point of interest, especially amongst prospective journeyers. In previous episodes, our co-founders have detailed the processes that envelope psychedelic preparation and integration. Today, they’ll describe the intrapersonal work that extends beyond the psychedelic experience.
In a quick fix culture, one-stop prescriptive ‘healing’ is the norm. Now that psychedelics are being adopted by the clinical medical model, concern is looming over the likelihood that their use will be interpreted under the same band-aid approach that permeates much of the western pharmaceutical industry.
Nicholas and Jimmy will explain why the psychedelic experience itself is not a cure for our issues, but rather a catalyzing agent that motivates further lifestyle changes. How is our willingness to make these adjustments a measure of our anticipated personal transformation?
What should journeyers observe and work to reshape throughout their psychedelic healing journey? Our hosts will discuss how to curate a life of sustainable satisfaction beyond the peak experiences of a psychedelic experience. Later, they pose stimulating questions that can help us engage in more open communication with all levels of our truth.
Episode 21 – Defining “The Work” in Psychedelic Therapy
Nick: Welcome to the Psychedelic Passage podcast. My name is Nick Levich. I’m here with my co-host, Jimmy Nguyen, thanks for joining us today. This week, we are talking about what it means to do the work.
Jimmy: The work. [laughs]
Nick: I felt called to make an episode around this because one of the things that we talk about with anyone who’s discovering or inquiring about a potential journey is one of the questions is like, are you willing to do the work? Like there’s work required.
One of the questions we always get in return is, “What is that work?” I can’t decide whether I’m willing to do it or not unless I know what it is. What I wanted to do in this episode is dive into that a little bit more.
So, we have a constructive discussion around what this work looks like, feels like, and how to prepare for it. And ultimately, to give folks an understanding of what’s entailed to really make the most of this experience.
Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, I hear from you, as a part of our goals and intentions with this episode, today is about defining the work may be trying to offer some tangible examples of that, but I want to back up for a second and just denote that in the conversation that we’re having, that there is work required.
And I think that is really important before we get into the nuances and definitions of it because when folks think about psychedelics, you’re also combating against the way that we think about personal growth and self-help in our society, we’re combating, the way that we view medications as far as resolving and fixing symptoms.
The one thing when I hear you saying this word work, it just denotes that it’s a two-way street between the individual and the psychedelic experience in the psychedelic medicine. I always share and I know that you do too, with folks that psychedelics can be a catalyst, a momentum shifter, for our processes, but not a replacement for them.
I think that there’s a lot of people out there who are like, “Yeah, I’m dealing with this certain symptom, or I’m dealing with this mental health issue, or I’m dealing with lack of motivation, lack of participation in my life, lack of self-love.
If I can just have the psychedelic experience, then it’ll just give me that, and then I’m good. I’m good to go, I can ride off into the sunset, feeling fulfilled and accomplished.” I just want to just break it to people that that is not how it works. It’s really just not how it works.
Psychedelics in a Quick Fix Culture
Nick: Well, let’s dive into this a little bit because this brings up an example that I use pretty often, which is that the way that we’re conditioned here in America, and much of the western world is if you have high cholesterol, you have two options.
You make a lifestyle change or you just take a Lipitor and keep eating doughnuts and pizza and doing whatever else you were doing before, and no lifestyle change is required. And people generally look at the role medication plays in the western world and just assume that psychedelics plug right into that model. What you’re saying is that that is just not the case, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, also, another example that I think about is [laughs] we’re talking about this in the context of work anyways. There are different types of work, you can show up at a job, let’s actually use employment and jobs as an example here.
I hope every listener that we have knows the difference of showing up to work on that day when you’re fully engaged, you’re firing off on all cylinders, you’re creative, you’re problem-solving, you’re all of this. And then there are some people in society who just show up and just punch the clock. They’re there, they exist.
Jimmy: They consume time, they produce, and then they punch out and they go home. There’s just a different level of fulfillment and accomplishment and all of that. The whole reason why I’m saying that is that, when we’re talking about the work in the context of this episode, it’s not the drudgery of showing up where you don’t want to be and punching a clock to get pay or health insurance or job security or whatever.
We’re talking about inner work, we’re talking about internal work, and we’re talking about the things that what you were alluding to can lead to long-lasting, tangible, meaningful change in your life, which then posits the whole thing we’re talking about as well as we’ve been saying thematically throughout previous episodes, that’s why the integration is important that integration process.
Something you said on some past episodes, it’s like, “Yeah, you were just chasing peak experiences, and you go and have these psychedelic experiences, and you feel bliss and connectivity and accomplishment and self-love and all that.”
And if you don’t do jack sh** about it, in terms of bringing that into your everyday life, well, guess what? You’re going to be back in the cycle of seeking these external things.
When we’re talking about work, we’re talking about, okay, how do we create this life or curate a life for ourselves that is beyond the psychedelic ceremonies, that’s beyond peak experiences, that’s beyond external measures of seeking, whatever this is.
I’m looking forward to diving in, but I just wanted to somewhat prime that for folks as far as psychedelics not being this thing that we just received, it’s not just this thing that, “Oh, I put zero effort in. I have the psychedelic experience, and I’m cured. All of a sudden, my life is great.” Because even if you feel that, it’s not going to last forever either.
Nick: Well, this to me is a direct hit on one of your favorite words, which is reciprocity. You have to be in a reciprocal relationship with the medicine. What we’ve both seen time and time again, is that the folks who really approach prep earnestly and put in that “work.”
The medicine gives them an amazing outcome, so to speak. It matches the energetic investment of the journeyer. And then the flipside is also true for folks that just come in there, assuming that they’re going to be fixed, and they don’t have to do anything. And oftentimes, their expectations fall drastically short.
Preparation Efforts Determine Therapeutic Outcomes
Jimmy: Yeah. And the work, I think, has this continuity throughout the entire process, preparation, the actual psychedelic experience, and ceremony and integration, though they take on different iterations and different meanings. I think, in each of these processes, what I share with folks– let’s focus on preparation for a little bit.
What I share with folks is that, especially with psilocybin, and I feel this way with certain other psychedelics and medicines, too, but when you commune with the medicine, it scans you a little, it just takes a look and just sees, okay, what’s going on with this person?
Where are they at in this process? How aware are they of all of the stuff that’s open and present with them? And then in that communion between the journeyer and the medicine, that’s then what creates the experience. What I share with folks is that the– whether people believe in this or not, this is my belief I’m not going to tell people what to believe.
I believe that medicine is aware of how honest you are with yourself, it’s aware of how deep you’ve gone in your own preparation process and looking under the hood, shining a light on things, and to a degree, it’s tactical and strategic. I’ve had clients who say all the right stuff in the prep calls, and they’re saying that they’ve read, and they’ve done their own internal introspection.
And then we get to the ceremony and they’re just blindsided by all this stuff that they weren’t aware of. Whether it’s a trauma or whether they feel a certain way about something, and I was like, “Okay, well that’s likely an indication that you didn’t do the work in your preparation.
I guess what I’m denoting is that you get a real direct outcome from the work that you put in. These are one of the rare situations in life where it’s all in your benefit to do the work in preparation to show up with your full self to identify what’s on the table or on your radar as far as what could come up during your psychedelic experience.
Nick: Talking the talk is not enough, you got to walk the walk.
Nick: We have seen a lot of clients who know all the right things to say but are not ready, willing and able to actually do the internal searching that’s required to figure out what’s actually going on in there, which is a big part of the prep process.
Jimmy: And the facilitator can only support you far. The facilitator really is like we say, a mirror, to whatever you’re bringing into the space and the process. If you’re withholding, if you are not clear with yourself about what’s going on with you, then no way can the facilitator mirror and properly reflect that back to you if you have your own blind spots.
I think in preparation, what I share a lot with folks is, to me, defining the work around this is that internal inventory taking process, getting very honest and real with yourself about what you think about things, how you feel about things, how much stuff is taking on bandwidth and power and control in your life.
And I find that the work and preparation, this is probably the trickiest part that I work through with my clients is being able to put a magnifying glass on those things. And then having a buffer between the stories that they tell themselves about that, the emotions that come up about that.
Nick: The judgment.
Jimmy: Yeah, it’s really this observing without judgment. And I know that that’s especially hard with folks who are dealing with real sticky stuff, like negative self-perception, or lack of self-love, or being overly critical, or depression, anxiety symptoms, that’s challenging stuff, to have to address and negotiate.
But where it comes into play, again, strategically, is that if you are able to go through those practice rounds in preparation, you are way more prepared to navigate that in the actual psychedelic or ceremonial experience. What are some other things that you chat with your clients and your folks about how to define this workaround, preparation, or even the other parts of– [crosstalk]
The Willingness to Make Lifestyle Changes: A Measure of Success
Nick: I don’t even know that it’s unique to preparation. But I think what comes down to me is a willingness to make lifestyle changes. These changes may not have to be big, but there’s got to be a willingness to make them.
I’ll give an example on the integration side of things, which is– and it can happen anywhere, it’s really not specifically integration, and that tends to come up more there. But it can happen in prep, too, all of the sudden things that you did on autopilot before, you pause and go, “Oh, maybe that doesn’t actually scratch the itch that it used to or that I want it to.”
The question is, are you going to go out on your standard Thursday night drinking with your buddies, who now that you’re realizing that maybe not something that serves you. A lot of times, the psilocybin, the psychedelic, whatever it is, will highlight these shifts that need to be made. But if you’re not ready, willing, and able to make the adjustments, what good is knowing about it anyway?
Jimmy: Yeah, I see, I hear you saying, “The awareness only gets you far, and then at some point, you have to take action and that you have to implement.”
Nick: Yeah, awareness is the prerequisite. We can’t change our behavior if we don’t have the awareness that we’re doing it. And then once you have the awareness, it only gets you 50% of the way there, then you have to actually make an adjustment.
And this is where most people are like, “Mm, am I really willing to do that?” Because a lot of times our identity is wrapped up in our lifestyle choices. Who am I going to be if I don’t go out drinking, or I put a boundary in my relationship, or I leave this social circle behind or whatever it is, it’s scary, because the question is, “Who are you going to be when you let all that go?”
Jimmy: Yeah, are we our patterns and habits and choices? Or is it something deeper than that? It’s probably a blended answer to that. What this brings up for me is this conversation of doing versus being that we talked to with a lot of our clients.
I have to really preface for folks, at least the clients that I work with, in this juxtaposition of doing versus being which I hear what you’re saying, like, “The doing is what I do on a Thursday night, what I do at work, what I do on my own time,” it’s all this doing.
And then that can get wrapped up into a misconception of who we actually are. What I share with folks, at least in prep and ceremony, is that what we really need to focus on is the being.
But then I also put an asterisk on there to say that it’s not that doing is not important. It’s that most of the time folks are already good at that. They’re already good at doing and analyzing, and accomplishing or whatever, almost to a fault.
What I share with folks is, okay, well, let’s work on really flexing that muscle of being, knowing that integration process, then you have a lot of time to do it. I hear that in what you’re talking about where like, okay, it’s fine too, or awareness of the prerequisite like you said. You have to be cognizant of the things that are detracting or adding to your life.
And then there is this whole implementation component around it because I also see that as somewhat of a misnomer for folks who are misrepresentation when they’re talking about, okay, what do I do in the ceremony? Should I be sitting up? Should I be laying down? Do I have my eyes closed? Do I have my eyes open?
Nick: I think what we need to highlight here is that the journey itself is all being. There is nothing to do. But prep and integration requires active work. Like, active, it is not a passive process. Ceremony is a bit more passive, like you’re just sitting back and observing and going through this wild, wacky experience.
But to me, prep and integration, if it’s done correctly, is extremely active. And active can be being and doing but it’s an active process that you are engaged in.
Jimmy: Which means you prioritize it, which means you build time for it, it’s not an afterthought. In our society, thinking about work, it’s one of the primary things that we spend our time and bandwidth on. Even for people who are going 9:00 to 5:00, I mean, 40 hours a week or more, that’s a big chunk of your life.
When you apply that to work in psychedelic experiences, well, it does mean that you have to chunk out time for it. It does mean that you have to prioritize it. Regardless of whether that’s an internal observation on what’s going on with you, regardless of whether that’s an actual task like journaling or body movement and exercise, whether that’s having meaningful conversations with the people who are supporting you through this process.
I’m hearing what you’re saying when we’re talking about work, it’s divvied up into this internal exploration and work that we have to do. But then there is this activity, there is this doing component to it as well, which you’re saying revolves around those lifestyle changes in at least the integration process.
Nick: For sure, and I mean, maybe the best caveat to put on this is that it is primarily inner work. It’s work that’s occurring within our life, our sense of being, our practices, our habits. And maybe we can touch on what some of those things are.
But for me, the way that we think, the way that we speak to ourselves, the inputs that we put into our body, whether those are physical inputs like food, water, sleep, exercise, information, inputs, what media we’re consuming, all of these things matter.
And this is a much more holistic approach than what we’re indoctrinated into, which is what we started the episode with, which is to take a pill and feel better. The whole take a psychedelic and feel better is just not how this works. Folks have to be willing.
Are you willing to adjust how you think? Are you willing to adjust how you speak to yourself? Are you willing to adopt a new worldview if that is what gets shown to you in your journey? That takes a level of willingness and courage that perhaps not everyone is prepared for.
Jimmy: Yeah. I also would add a level of commitment too, because there are people out there who have psychedelic experiences that are challenging and difficult and overwhelming. I know you and I know that just on the other side of challenging, difficult and overwhelming is this potential for healing, this potential for relief, this potential benefit out there.
But it’s not always folks who go through a psychedelic experience, and it’s all beautiful and rainbows and butterflies, and they come out feeling amazing, and they are “good to go.” Those folks have work to do.
And then for folks who come into a challenging, difficult, overwhelming experience, it’s a bewildering experience, it needs a lot of unpacking, it needs a lot of processing, it needs a lot of support, that also works. The work and the belief to trust, okay, this process, even though it could be difficult for me now, my symptoms are exacerbated now.
But then it requires that level of commitment to see it through. And that’s also, I think, one of the myths that I want to combat in our conversation here about work, because like you said, it’s not just about the relief after a ceremony.
It’s about, “Okay, can we take this altered state experience that we’ve had, regardless of the content, regardless of whatever direction it went?” Can we take that and unpack it and process it to make us say, here’s the keyword, tangible, meaningful, and long-lasting change in our lives?
I just want to make it clear that work does look different for each person. But regardless of where your psychedelic experience took you, you will benefit from this ongoing work, because you shouldn’t have to rely on having a mushroom ceremony every couple of weeks for you to feel right or for you to feel your whole self for you to feel like you’re-
Jimmy: -having a life of fulfillment.
When is “The Work” Finished?
Nick: So, when does the work end? Trick question, it doesn’t really. [laughter]
Jimmy: This is another thing that’s really hard to convey to journeyers because they’re on a lot of times on the hunt for short-term immediate relief, which I totally understand having been there myself. But what we started to realize when we embark on this journey is that it is just a journey.
There is no destination here. Just when you think you’ve uncovered every last bit of self-hate, or not-enoughness, you find a bit more. And that’s the nature of, what’s often referred to as shadow work as you’re bringing the unconscious to the surface, and you don’t know what’s there until it comes up.
It doesn’t mean that you don’t get relief. What it means is that we can not only sustain it, but also deepen the durability and the relief by continuing to engage in our own internal process and honor whatever is going on there, even if your journey was six years ago, six decades ago, it really doesn’t matter.
I think what this really comes down to is, are you willing to take ownership of your situation regardless of what it is for the rest of your life? That’s a big commitment, as you alluded to, and that’s daunting for some people, especially if they don’t like themselves. But that’s the nature of what you’re embarking on with a psychedelic healing journey whether you realize it or not.
This work doesn’t just all of a sudden stop, it gets easier and becomes incorporated into your new way of being. And you start to see– this is the cool part. The feedback loop is quick, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this too, where you make a minor little adjustment.
And all of a sudden you get the feedback from that. It’s like “Oh, I feel better.” And that’s what allows us this whole process to keep going is that feedback loop because it’s just if you go to the gym and you see your progress pics, you’re like, “Okay, cool, I can do this. I’m seeing the change.” Only here, you’re feeling it, deep within your being.
Nick: Yeah, that’s a lot of what I describe to folks as far as this work or another word that I use is the practice. It’s somewhat of a practice, which means that it’s ongoing, it’s repetitive and you’re honing a craft. What I share with folks is it’s fine-tuning your operating system.
As a part of your operating system, there are inputs, there’s stimuli, there’s how we process it, there’s what we do with it. And then the outcomes that are associated with that. For some folks who are really unaware, asleep at the wheel, not tuned into their body on autopilot, at any number of these things, well, your feedback loop is likely a little bit longer.
And it has these meanders and there are a lot of interruptions, distractions, and things in that feedback loop. What I hear you sharing, as far as a part of this work, especially in the integration process is that almost that fine-tuning of your operating system, what you’re aware of, what you perceive, what you see when you’re testing these little things, when you’re trying these little life changes.
And that can be as incremental and large and drastic as you define, but then it’s really up to you to find, “Okay, what works in my life.”
Jimmy: Part of what we’re talking about here is this lifelong commitment to the process that most folks think is just the ceremony. And it’s not just the ceremony, it extends far beyond that.
I think it’s just important to highlight that this is one of the inherent challenges of plugging psychedelics into a more clinical orientation is, it doesn’t address any of this part of it. The way that we approach ceremony is that the ceremonial container starts to extend into the rest of your life.
And you talk about this all the time, which is bringing that sacredness, and that sense of ceremony to everything that you do. And that also works. None of this is particularly easy, but here’s what it is, is rewarding.
And I think there’s a trade-off between the easy button approach, pop a Lipitor, and the actual deep sense of fulfillment and reward that comes from running a marathon or losing the weight that you wanted to lose, or whatever the case is. This is not an easy button.
This is a highly rewarding journey for those who are willing to take ownership of their situation and make adjustments as needed. And those adjustments could be in how you be or how you do it, it goes both ways. But adjustments have to get made.
Learning to Disambiguate Your Truth
Nick: Yeah, it’s not prescriptive, is what I’m hearing you say. It’s not one size fits all, here, have this experience, and you’re good. And the work is defined differently for each person, though what we’re denoting here is that there’s the internal process.
And then also, “Okay, how does that affect the choices, decisions, beliefs, and lifestyle that I have in my life?” Whether that’s a little incremental change to your perspective about something, or whether it’s a little incremental change about a habit or a pattern.
One thing that I hear very resounding from you is getting off of autopilot. It’s like getting into the present moment, and really taking a look and really understanding, “Okay, when I do put this burger in my mouth, what’s going on with my body? What are my emotions right now?
What’s going on in my head? What is this thing that I’m relieving? Or am I having a bite of this burger, because I just really enjoy it and I want to celebrate?” It could be the same action, but for a variety of different motivators and reasons.
I think that this is also really important for folks who are addressing mental health issues, and symptomatic outcomes, from that. A lot of folks know, I’ve alluded to a little bit about my own personal journey with depression diagnoses, and all of these things.
I have a lot of clients who, let’s say, have depression in their lives. I have one client that I’m thinking about who was on medications for 30 years and had a lot of life changes coming up, was really coming into this with this notion of wanting to cure their depression.
In a lot of our “work together.” In a lot of our process together, we really had to rewrite that expectation and that narrative because it was going to dictate and define their process.
And that’s a big, big towering objective, to fully eradicate and heal one’s depression, where they ultimately arrive, after actually a couple of ceremonies over a period of six to eight months. They were like, “Oh, well, the goal isn’t actually about eradicating my depression.” It’s about a couple of things.
It’s about exploring who I am beyond this diagnosis of depression, it’s about coming into a relationship with my depression, knowing that these depressive bouts may still come up, knowing that it might not be gone forever. And then that’s where they were able to define their ongoing work.
The next time they were having a period where they were low energy, couldn’t get out of bed, couldn’t find motivation for things, couldn’t find all of that, they were able to use the skills they had developed over time, to then say, “Oh, this is this part of me that’s coming up, I know this part, I’ve really analyzed this part, I really come into relationship with this part.”
And then I also realized there’s these other things that I’ve been building the inner work that I’ve been doing, the inner resourcing. I have way more tools available to me now than just taking medication or hiding away in my bed for a week and whatnot.
And that was, I think, a representation of the work specific to that client. And they’re not on their medications now. They do not go back. For some folks, it is going back on medications, if they feel that’s the right thing for them.
Jimmy: Too hard, too uncomfortable, too daunting.
Nick: For sure.
Jimmy: Because I’ve worked with folks who have depression, and they taper to work towards a ceremony, we have the ceremony. Guess what happens? The depression makes them– it all comes up.
In other words, the medication that was masking it, basically uncorks, this stockpile of depression from however many years, and after the ceremony, they can’t hold it, that it’s too uncomfortable, they don’t want to deal with it, they thought it was just going to fix them.
And that’s a wildly different outcome than what you just described with the same motivating factor for wanting to have the journey. One of the things that you touched on that I think is important is that part of the role of a good facilitator is that they give you the tools that you can use to do your own inner work because there’s a lot of tools available to help us through this process.
But if we’re not aware of them, and we don’t know how to use them, then it can feel more daunting than it needs to be. One of the things that you talk about a lot is making sure that you’re in a place where you’re resourced, it’s really hard to do the work if you don’t feel resourced.
Nick: Or supported, or validated, or seen in this process. And in both of those use cases, A, I’m a free-will personal choice type of person. If somebody feels they need to go back on medication, or they need to do XYZ and their own process, I’m like, “Hey, that’s your choice, your decision, I support you.”
Only that person knows, though, whether internally, if they are going back on medication as an escape route, or if they are going back on their medication, because they’re like, “You know what, I could benefit from some emotional stability while I’m dealing with my stuff and dealing with my issues and dealing with my things.” The same action.
Two very, very, radically different internal courses for those individuals. By the way, I’m not defining the success metric as to whether somebody goes on medication or not after an experience. What I’m sharing is that the work is so different for each person, but what we’re trying to define is, how do you take the experience, whatever it is, and use it to aid your ongoing healing process.
This was the thing that I forgot about earlier, and it’s now come back to me. What I want to share is that what you were talking about earlier, denotes that psychedelics are not a cure in our society today, they can be viewed as a tool.
And what psychedelics can do is, it’s a tool that helps you build other tools, is the way that I think about it. Psychedelics can be this tool of uncovering, this tool of introspection, this tool of insights, and whatnot.
But then if you only rely on the tool of psychedelics, well, you’re not going to have access to psychedelics, you’re not going to be doing them every day. Then how do you take that to create more tools, tools that you can then use in your everyday life.
Whether that’s awareness, introspection, whether that’s small incremental changes, whether that’s motivating factors around your decisions, whether that’s radically making different decisions in your life from a different set of values, different set of principles? I almost view this as a mechanism for you to create tools in your normal everyday life that can assist you in this internal process.
Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, the journey itself is, what, six to eight hours? And then you have to live the whole rest of your life. And that’s where the work is, that’s where the tools come into play.
And my hope for anyone that’s listening to this episode is that this helps you understand better, what is entailed– what is required when you embark on one of these potential psychedelic healing journeys.
Nick: So, just to encapsulate that for our listeners, because I know we’ve gone out there a little bit [chuckles] our conversation today. The work is a lifelong process, beyond just the psychedelic experience, ceremony, programs, service that you are engaged in.
The work requires a combination of doing and being that embodiment and action. I think the work requires a real honest look at yourself, your strengths, your limitations, your deficits, your beliefs, your stories, the emotions around that. You’re also noting that this work is both internal and external.
Meaning that there’s this internal discovery, getting honest with yourself, shining a light on the things that you need to shine a light on, regardless of whether it’s comfortable, uncomfortable, the savory, unsavory, all the parts of ourselves, and then also the external which means “Okay, once we do this internal discovery, now what?
How does this play out in my life?” And then I would say that the last part, at least in my summary, listen, you can add anything that I’ve missed here, is that awareness being the prerequisite, all of it, but the awareness is not enough, that requires more than implementation, I guess you will.
So, is there anything else that I’m missing there? I just wanted to add a little bit of tangibility in this, defining the work for our listeners, but anything else you feel is important for us to share here?
Jimmy: I think that was a beautiful recap, I think, just radical ownership of yourself and your situation is the other piece here. There has to be this willingness to take ownership of whatever is going on in your world, and your role in that.
And that that can oftentimes be a challenging task, but it’s doable, and once again, rewarding. And I think for anyone that’s willing to do the work that you so eloquently broke down there in our summary, just know that you’re going to be rewarded greatly.
Nick: It’s one of the most empowering paths we can begin to walk because we truly heal, grow and transform into the version of ourselves that we all deep down know that we can be.
And, Jimmy and I are, even if we don’t know you, we support you in walking that path. And if there’s anything we can do to help you, we’re here for it. That brings us to the end of our episode for today. Thank you all for listening.
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