Longevity Medicine and Psychedelics w/ Dr. Jordanna Quinn

Dr. Jordanna Quinn’s Origin Story

What Has Informed Her Approach to Healing? 

Jimmy Nguyen: I wonder if you can take a moment to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your origin story, both psychedelically and non psychedelically. What brought you into this path of becoming a physician? 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“Being a physician or a healer has always been within me. I knew at 14 years old that I wanted to be a doctor and honestly never looked back. I remember the moment I was watching a PBS surgery, someone doing eye surgery actually, and I remember at that moment being like, I want to be a doctor. 

I remember thinking, I love puzzles, and I love people, and I love biology, and being a doctor is a way I could put all of this together, and I’ve always just been a natural at helping other people. 

When I was younger, I really cared, and still do, for other humans in the world and their well-being. It’s just always been in me and in that path, and you go through in college, you have to apply to medical school. By that point, I wasn’t in love with Western medicine. I just thought the doctors I had met as a whole were not super awesome. 

A lot of them discouraged me from becoming a doctor. I still knew I wanted to be a doctor and it was in me, but I started researching other paths of healing than just the MD approach to medicine. 

I looked at traditional Chinese medical school and I looked at naturopathy and I looked at chiropractic, and all these different things, and really what it came down to is that I still chose a traditional path, but I found osteopathy. 

I have a DO as opposed to an MD, and there’s very little difference in our training. I mean, the actual medical school curriculum is exactly the same except that, in addition to everything MDs learn, we also learn, as DOs, hands-on healing. 

So we do a lot of things like how the internal or diseased body manifests in our physical being and how our physical being impacts our internal being. 

Then I did my residency and got my board certification in something called physical medicine and rehab, which is the study of anything that makes you move abnormally. 

So from brain injuries to spinal cord injuries, sports medicine, rheumatologic conditions, neurologic conditions, any sort of movement disorder. I wanted to do sports medicine; that was my goal very quickly into practicing after residency. 

I was practicing a very traditional Western medicine, sports med pain management practice, and I was just giving people huge doses of pain medications, and I was doing spinal injections and talking to people about losing weight and optimizing their physical well-being, but very few people in my clinic wanted to hear that. 

They literally just wanted medication that, in their mind, was going to fix them. And I saw that the medicines weren’t fixing people and the injections I’m doing aren’t fixing people, and I really saw the disconnect between our medical system and how it’s delivered and the knowledge that people have. 

I became a doctor and I wasn’t loving it. This is not why I became a doctor, to prescribe and to stick needles in people. 

Don’t get me wrong, I still love doing procedures, but it just didn’t feel aligned with my values. There was more taking a healer approach that I knew was in me.” 

The Transition to Regenerative Medicine 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“So in my first job, I would see professional athletes, high-level athletes that couldn’t do steroids or do a steroid injection or whatever before their competition. 

I had already learned about, never done, but already learned about regenerative medicine, which is the use of your body’s own platelets and stem cells to prevent the need for orthopedic surgery. 

I started referring those patients to a clinic nearby to do these procedures. And I was like, well that’s cool. And then I had a patient who had a terrible disease called complex regional pain system, which is essentially when your nervous system freaks out on you. 

She was my age at the time, and on all of these pain medications, high doses of things that I couldn’t even fathom. She had little kids, and it was like ruining her life, being on high-dose opiates and all of these medications and I just wanted something better for her. 

So I researched what else we can do and I ended up talking to this neurosurgeon who told me about doing high-dose IV magnesium drips for complex regional pain syndrome. And I was like, what? That’s so awesome. 

When I looked up a clinic, it was the same clinic that I was referring to regenerative medicine procedures to, and I was like, this is a clinic I need to work at. 

I sent a letter to the physician; I told him to hire me. There were a couple other things that happened in between, but long story short, over time, he ended up hiring me to do his regenerative medicine procedures, being a sports medicine physician and he trained me. 

He’s an old school, used to be called anti-aging medicine, now it’s called longevity medicine, but he’s one of the first. He’s now almost 80, so he’s literally one of the first in that field and he taught me everything there was to know about anti-aging medicine. 

Even before he actually hired me, I sat with him one day a week and shadowed him and he mentored me and I would see how he treated patients and I literally remember just feeling like this is what I was meant to do for a living. I felt like home in his clinic. 

The Decision to Add Psychedelics to Her Practice 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“That’s how I ended up here doing longevity medicine, doing regenerative medicine, and then when I opened my own practice almost eight years ago now, I added psychedelics because when I discovered psychedelics for myself it had such a profound impact on me. 

I knew as strongly as the day I knew I was going to be a doctor when I was 14, that I had to offer this to my patients. I fought with it for a year. 

It literally came into my system, ‘you have to offer this to your patients.’ And I was like, ‘I don’t want to do this. That’s not why I became a doctor, to do psychedelics.’ And I literally fought with my internal self for pretty close to a year. 

Also, because what’s illegal for physicians to do is ketamine therapy, and also as part of my first job I used to deal with addicts, heroin addicts, ketamine addicts, opiate addicts, and so I didn’t really feel like it aligned with my values and who I thought I was, my identity as a physician was not to be in the psychedelic space. 

But it just wouldn’t leave me. It was like, ‘you are one of the chosen ones that needs to bring this to Western medicine.’ So about a year later I added it to my practice, and it’s just been nothing but a positive experience for myself and for my patients and my business. 

And even over this amount of time working in the psychedelic space, in the past couple years there’s been more and more studies that have come out that have shown different psychedelics individually- ketamine, psilocybin, ayahuasca– all have a role in longevity and in our health. 

They all independently do very specific things to improve and increase longevity in humans. It’s very fascinating, and I’m in the right place doing the right things that I should be doing.” 

The Experiential Component to Healing: Nature vs Nurture 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

There are very real diseases, we all have different genetics, and we are born with different things, but we also know that how we treat our bodies- both from what we eat, how we exercise, how we meditate, how we sleep, what we look at on screens, and who we engage with- all of this actually affects our physiology and affects our genetics. 

There’s something called epigenetics, which is the part of your genes that you actually do have the ability to turn on or off. So everything we engage with affects our genetic profile and our epigenetics, whether it’s turned on or off. 

It’s not just like you come see me, and I’m going to give you a thing or I’m the healer, I mean it’s all of those things and you understand that the power of healing is within, right? 

Now you can’t change everything, right? I’m always going to be a 5‘ 5” white woman, right? Like I can’t change my genetics and be a 7’ tall black man, right? 

Those genetics are not changeable, but I might have been predisposed to have cardiovascular disease and by diet and exercise and working on my mental state, I will turn that gene off and not end up with a heart attack at a young age or whatever my genetic makeup is, right? 

There’s some things you can change and some things you can’t, but so much again of what we consume, whether it’s in our mouth, eyes, ears, nose, all of that, can be modified. 

And I do think the delivery of healthcare is a little bit wrong and how people consume health care is a little bit wrong because it’s a give and a take and I’m fixing you and I’m giving you this thing as opposed to like this relationship that you and I have right now. 

This podcast is important, and it’s actually changing ourselves, and it’s changing our lives. It might not be like in the way like, ‘my god, my life is changing,’ but every interaction you have changes your life a little bit. 

I think the doctor-patient relationship is so sacred because people are putting so much trust in me, and I want them to be able to tell me anything because I’m going to help guide them and walk along the path of their health with them, and hopefully help them believe that they have the power of healing within themselves as well. 

Sometimes you need medication to help get you there sooner. Or sometimes you just need a medication period, or to feel better, or to make a shift, but it’s still not like the medication is fixing you. 

Jimmy Nguyen: You’re speaking to this experiential part when you’re saying even the conversation that we’re having here does change you to a certain degree. And I appreciate you saying that in this lens of medical care. 

What really turned on a light bulb in my mind was when you said how people consume healthcare, which in my head meant this is still based on this almost consumerist economy. 

I listened to a shaman speak one time. This is like the first time I ever did hapé, his name was Jaguar, and somebody in the audience had this question for him- ‘What do you think about man made psychedelics and things like that?’ And his answer was that the medicine shows up in a format that can be understood and taken in by the culture. 

And so this is why LSD shows up as like a tab or something physical, whereas it’s something different in other indigenous cultures. It’s almost like the same thing here where you’re talking about things like inner healing intelligence. You’re talking about the acceptance of what we can’t change and and to also embrace the things that we can. 

You’re talking about folks who go to doctors or facilitators or therapists and guides and be like, there’s all this stuff wrong with me. Fix me. Will the mushroom fix me? And it’s almost like the same thing happening but in a different arena. 

I talk to people a lot about an external locus of control versus an internal. And and I think that it’s it’s it’s also very common for people to hear the really romanticized tales about the 10 years of therapy in a night. And yes, these things happen. Yes, Paul Stametz stopped stuttering after eating an ounce and climbing a tree or whatever he did in How to Change Your Mind. 

And I think that we are in a society where folks really are in this stage of our country where the desire to feel better and heal and be whole again is so dire that it can almost like create this effect of kike a rejection dysphoria that sometimes comes up when folks have a somewhat nonlinear path to healing. 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“In this culture of ‘why not me,’ it can be you, but you have to want to take responsibility as opposed to why can’t I do that or take that? It’s like baby steps every day.” 

Jimmy Nguyen: I think that’s one of the beautiful things about psychedelic work as well, is that it challenges individuals to reorder and reprioritize their true values and then really take a look in the mirror about what are we actually applying to that. 

I’ve been a person who has literally gained and lost probably hundreds of pounds, hundreds upon hundreds of pounds in my own health and wellness journey. And there was a time when I would kind of like give myself excuses, like, ‘of course it’s associated a little bit with childhood trauma,’ ‘of course it’s associated with living in America and the sedentary lifestyle of sitting in front of a computer.’ 

And then in one of my own psychedelic experiences, I had this realization, or this epiphany. You know how they say your body’s a temple? Well, I came to this realization that half the time I treat my body like a temple, and half the time I treat it like a damn amusement park. 

That’s up to me to realize that and address my own shame, address my own things around that. I hear what you’re saying in that last part of your share; I think that the truth carries some things. 

And I think one of the things that the truth carries is this confrontation around the stories and the narratives and things, which is also super appropriate to psychedelic work. 

But it also carries this level of accountability that is also a part of it as well. I do feel that when folks are in such a state of suffering, whether it is something to the body or to the mind or to just the psyche in general, one of the things that I talk to people about is, how do we actually unpack the stories and the beliefs and the values that are like embedded into this? 

When we look at, let’s say, the medicalization of psychedelics, there’s a part where it’s already happening because this is the framework upon which a lot of  it is built. 

The Evolving Lens Around Psychedelics, Medicine, and Healthcare 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“What I’ve seen happen in my office, because we work in the longevity space, we put people on year-long longevity pathways and it includes, for example, diet, lifestyle, it includes a whole bunch of different stuff, but we’ll do regenerative medicine and we’ll do psychedelics in that year. 

And I’ve seen someone who I put stem cells into their shoulder, for example, and they got better, but it honestly wasn’t until they dealt with their trauma, or actually we did a few ketamine sessions and they went deep into their history of trauma, that it was like almost overnight their shoulder pain was gone. 

So the stem cells were done like maybe a month or two before, and then they did ketamine and it was like the combination of the two. 

Now, I have plenty of patients that you know, not a 100% of my patients, or even half of my patients, do psychedelics, but that was such a clear example of how the stem cells could only get them so far unless they dealt with their trauma. 

That’s what’s changed a little bit, is that I really more and more see the power of psychedelics. I see the benefit of psychedelics. I mean anything from microdosing to macrodosing, right? 

If it’s microdosing, it’s taking a subperceptible dose. You’re just taking it hoping to alter your biochemistry, but not feeling it. And macrodose is like you’re going into ceremony and maybe dissociated from your body, but completely not a human for a while. 

And then there’s everything in between. There’s something called functional psychedelics that people are doing in business masterminds and in coaching and in therapy, and so there’s all of these different ranges of psychedelics that I think are really opening my mind to the possibility of what’s possible, you know. 

So I think that’s really what’s changing, and so for me, what’s exciting about it is seeing the world of psychedelics, and maybe it’s closer to a macro dose, but somewhere maybe in between like mid-range to a little bit higher, and then being, I’m going to say conscious, I mean you’re conscious on psychedelics but differently conscious enough to then be able to make decisions at a much faster pace and with your heart wide open than when you’re not on psychedelics. 

Like that’s where I see the power. So make decisions, alter your biochemistry, alter your health, improve your health. That’s what really excites me about this.” 

Jimmy Nguyen: I think another interesting thing that you are touching upon, which I’m curious to hear your take on this, viewing both medicine and healthcare and psychedelics, is that this is all happening from this performance-enhancing approach here. 

And I say that very thoughtfully because I don’t want folks to think that I’m fully discrediting this, but I think that most folks who have heard me and listened to this podcast at this point know that I’m an optimist with a good taste of skepticism. 

I think that when I look at this era of comparison and everyone living their best lives on social media, there’s this part of our society that people didn’t have 30 or 40 years ago. 

I think about where some of the pitfalls are of wellness in general, and then psychedelics being a subsegment of that, I think about the spiritual wellness influencers who are always trying to sell something. I think about the biohacking community, which there are parts where there’s merit to that. 

It’s almost as if there is this illusion of ‘you can be this optimized, self-actuated person who has all the things that you want in life, but it’s like over here.’ It’s like a goal over here that you have to do these things to go towards. And then you are also talking about this side of, ‘well, we also want to return people to their own inner agency and that they do have all the stuff already in them,’ as well. 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“It’s okay to use a medication for sleep, let’s say, right? If you’re not sleeping, life happened, your body clock is off, you had stressful events, a terrible breakup, and you’re not sleeping, and we need to reset that, let’s get you on medication. Like, don’t just suffer because you want to do it all naturally. Whatever that is. 

And you are allowed to do it all naturally. You get to do it your way. Because the truth is in finding healing within, we are altering our biochemistry every moment of every day. 

This conversation is altering my biochemistry. What I eat is altering my biochemistry. The clothes I put on my body are altering my biochemistry. The job I have is altering my biochemistry. How much time I spend in nature is altering my biochemistry. 

So to think that just because you’re going to either be pro or anti medications or supplements, that’s altering your biochemistry too. Nobody is above altering their biochemistry. 

It’s just how we choose to think about the things again that we’re consuming, whether it’s conversations, whether it’s exercise, whether it’s food, whether it’s supplements. And so I do think healing is within, but healing is also the things we’re consuming all around, so psychedelics also. 

I don’t think they’re separate, but it’s again going back to going to the doctor or coming to see me. Like, I’m not going to fix you, but I’m going to help you fix yourself. And I have tools that I can prescribe, and I have a ton of education, and I’m very knowledgeable, and I still learn a lot and study a lot, and I have a lot of experience with a lot of humans and all of that. 

Do I get it right 100% of the time? No, but also this doctor-patient relationship- that’s why it’s sacred. It’s my knowledge mixed with our energetic exchange, mixed with your trust and what you’re willing to do for yourself. So I do think healing is within, and we are also allowed to consume other things because we also live in a society where maybe more is required from us than is actually possible in life. 

I’d like to believe we all do the best we can, but instead of beating ourselves up about doing it right, what makes sense for you and your body. That being said, as a physician, I really value the physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional being as a whole, and so everybody who comes into my office, we’re talking about those things. 

If you come to me and say you’re not sleeping, or you come to me and tell me that you tore your meniscus in your knee, my questions are the same. What are you eating? How much exercise, and what are you doing? How’s your mood? How’s your relationships? What kind of stress are you under? Do you like your job? 

Then there are going to be different paths of healing, but all of those questions relate to that single injury or that single thing because all of those are going to help you fix yourself, and yes, maybe I’m going to put stem cells into your knee to help, but you also have to believe that they’re going to work. 

You also need to be not eating McDonald’s every day because if we’re going to do ketamine in my office, I’m putting you on supplement packs that I’ve made to optimize your cellular health and open that neuroplastic window longer and help you be more intentional about these journeys.”

Replenishing Our Body, Our Container

Jimmy Nguyen: I think the approach in this society towards psychedelics is the mental capacity. The body is this vital component, but it really is the container upon which we actually have these experiences. 

I tell people at the end of experiences that I have these two golden rules because we’re so bad at doing them. One is being gentle to yourself. That’s actually the first rule. But the second is to take care of your needs, which, over the next, let’s say, 24 to 48 hours, a lot of it is actually about recovery and replenishment. 

That’s where I was really interested in your supplement packs through Quinntessential Journey, and that’s why we added you to our Harm Reduction Guide. 

Dr. Jordanna Quinn: 

“I had the therapists that I work with tell me their patients had a transformative event on MDMA or psilocybin and then a huge crash afterward, which, if they’re already suicidal going in and then there’s a crash two or three days later, I mean, you have to be on top of that patient and make sure they’re just safe, right? 

Even then, if someone’s not suicidal but they had this amazing transformation, but they’re saying I’ll never do it again because I felt so bad afterward, to me, that’s terrible. Something that completely changed your life, but because you feel bad afterward, is not. 

I started doing research and found that if you care for this beautiful vessel that is caring for these ceremonies, you actually don’t have to have a crash. You just have to know what to nourish your body with beforehand and take care of your body beforehand, so we can build your system up. 

So when these journeys are so impactful, both energetically on your cells, but also energetically this way, your body and your spirit and your soul are truly ready, all of it, so you don’t have to have a crash. 

You don’t have to feel bad afterward. So I mean again, I think really holding extreme reverence for these medicines, they’re going to work with your body, but you also have to work with them, and you have to take it seriously and not just as a thing you’re putting into your body an experience you’re going to have and then go back to life. 

So that is why I created the supplements because I’m passionate about this work and I want people to have the transformation. And I truly think psychedelics are root-cause medicine. Like, I think you could go into your body and find that energetic cause of your disease, maybe not 100% of them, but many of them, and literally move beyond it. 

But you have to be willing to face that. You have to be willing to do the work, and you have to take care of your body and the beautiful vessel that’s holding these experiences.” 

“What you’re doing matters, and you all have the possibility and the true potential for change.” — Jimmy Nguyen