Preserving internal integrity through psychedelic integration is an intentional process of self discovery, discipline, and personal accountability. Oftentimes, people find themselves feeling stuck, repeating patterns and narratives that create conflict between the head and the heart.
Our hosts, Nicholas Levich and Jimmy Nguyen take a deep dive into the many ways that authenticity– or lack thereof, affects our perceptions, thoughts, behaviors, and feelings. Post-psychedelic experiences, journeyers enter a process of integrating newly-found knowledge.
During this psychedelic integration process, it’s common to experience internal resistance and not know how to resolve or identify the trigger point. Nicholas and Jimmy will describe the meaning of ‘internal integrity’, and later, offer examples of how internal integrity exists in our daily lives.
Then, they’ll explain our individual role in maintaining this integrity, or as Jimmy calls it “getting right with ourselves”. To close off, our hosts will detail how you might use external events to measure the presence of internal integrity, and what to do if you recognize that you’re living inauthentically.
Episode 28 – Preserving Internal Integrity Through Psychedelic Integration
Jimmy: Welcome to the Psychedelic Passage podcast. My name is Jimmy Nguyen, I’m joined here by my co-host Nick Levich. Thanks for joining us again this week. I’m really excited for you all to join us, and basically just listen to Nick and I nerd out on all things psychedelic.
And so, we’re just really appreciative to all of our listeners and all of our community and support and we hope that these conversations have been valuable in your own relationship with psychedelics. We have a great topic for you this week.
As Nick and I were brainstorming on what to talk about this week, we had a comment from one of our listeners. There was this dialogue where I was probably ranting, [chuckles] I was really sharing with people that I was using this phrase like “getting right with yourself,” like, “you have to internally get right with yourself.”
There were a lot of questions on what that means and how that applies to psychedelics, how that applies to folk’s personal journeys. So, today we’re going to be talking about internal integrity, internal authenticity, and how that factors into psychedelics, but then also any type of inner healing.
I know, Nick, this has come up for you quite a bit and you were saying before we started this episode that you see this all the time and so maybe it’s worth just starting by painting a picture on how this looks for folks. Do you want to talk through a couple of iterations on how you see this show up for folks?
What is ‘Internal Integrity’?
Nick: Yeah. So, I call this concept “internal integrity”. Jimmy calls it “getting right with yourself.” Regardless of whichever label resonates, this is a crucial, crucial part of the integration. Another way to phrase this is like being true to yourself, being brutally honest with yourself.
I pose this question to everyone that I work with. How can you take the right action for yourself in each moment? Recognizing that sometimes taking the right action means lying down on the couch and sometimes taking the right action means getting your a*s up and going to the gym.
It’s unique to each moment in each situation. Once again, there’s no prescriptive method for maintaining internal integrity. The barometer for it really comes down to how it is that you feel.
What I tend to find is that if you’re feeling out of sorts, chances are something’s out of integrity, you put someone else’s needs ahead of your own, you didn’t draw a boundary where you needed to, you didn’t ask for what you needed.
You perhaps, maybe put someone else’s needs first or did something that actually dishonored yourself. You actively went against what your soul, your heart wanted. All of those things kind of make us feel like sh*t.
Jimmy: You might not actively know what that thing or that action or that whatnot. And usually, it’s pretty straightforward to tell when you are out of alignment with yourself. And then the question becomes, “Well, how did I get here? What’s putting me out of alignment?
What does that even feel like? Am I feeling stuck? Am I upset? Am I frustrated?” Name the emotion. For many folks, they have this internal barometer on feeling in flow and in alignment with themselves, or not. That’s one or the other.
Nick: The juxtaposition of those two feelings is the signal to go, “Ah, I am out of flow. I am not feeling that sense of creativity and ease and wonder and joy and gratitude that I was feeling before. What is happening right now?” That is the cue to pause and go, “What in my life is out of whack right now?”
Chances are, I see this all the time with clients, they’re like, “Oh, I over-committed to all these social events that I felt obligated to say yes to, but I really, actually need time for myself.” Or, “Oh, my gosh, I put all these other people’s needs ahead of my own.”
Jimmy: Or, one of the best ones is, “I’m working really hard, and all of a sudden, I don’t have time for all these other things that I want to do in my life. For my health, for my relationships, for my X, Y, Z.” Hidden underneath what I hear you saying is that there are indicators. Indicators where you can get a sense or a feeling that something is not right-
Jimmy: -within yourself. Ultimately those can show up in your life in different ways. You’re over-committed, you’re overworked, you’re resting too much, you’re having too much fun. It goes many different ways. Hidden underneath all of that, I want to highlight that there is this internal process that’s going on.
You may feel that you are out of alignment or out of integrity with yourself, or not right with yourself, but it requires this internal look, this internal inventory, to get a sense on the disconnect, to get a sense on why.
Before we dive into the life factors, external factors, I really think it’s actually important to highlight that. For many folks, they actually don’t even have an idea of their most important values, principles, boundaries.
They’re just going along with the pattern or the action or the habits or the whatnot that’s been ingrained in their life in some certain way or reason. When I think about, “Okay, what does it mean to be in integrity with myself?”
We’re identifying, okay, we kind of know what it feels like when we’re out of integrity, we’re stuck, and all of that. I also think that it’s important for folks to identify what matters to them, their values, and their principles. Only then can you have an assessment on, does this align to that for me or not?
Nick: Well, that’s a challenging discovery process for most people because we’re conditioned in all sorts of different ways depending on our upbringing. I know for myself, I was an unconscious people pleaser. I didn’t realize that I was doing it until it was brought to my awareness.
And then it was like, “Oh, sh*t. I have to learn how to put myself first and how to draw boundaries around my engagements with other people so that I do feel good with myself and that my needs are actually being taken care of.”
And only then can I actually begin to serve others. This is actually directly related to one of the things that we touched on in last week’s episode around the arena of life. It’s actually when we leave the psychedelic experience and we reengage with life that a lot of this stuff comes to the forefront. It’s actually this life mirroring back to us where our blind spots are.
Examples of Internal Integrity
Jimmy: I have a great anecdote for this. One of my very early clients, a female in her 60s, she was recently retired, she really prided herself on being a smart and powerful and capable woman in the modern-day work environment.
She had always was a person who wanted to achieve and wanted to produce and wanted to make executive decisions. She had to lean a lot into some of the more masculine traits. When she retired, she was like, “I feel really stuck…
I feel this guilt when I sit on the couch and watch my shows and eat bonbons. I feel like I can’t be fully present when I’m hanging out with my grandkid and so on and so forth.” It’s actually very funny because during the psychedelic experience, she took a really high dose and actually didn’t have a hallucinogenic experience and so that was a whole thing in itself.
But one of the things that emerged in the integration process with that was that she realized that she wasn’t giving herself permission to enjoy because the narrative and the structure in her life was, “Well, you got to achieve this next thing…
You got to take care of the family and you got to create financial abundance and all this stuff.” At some point in one of our integration sessions, she was like, “I’ve worked really hard in my life. I should be able to sit on the couch and do nothing and eat bonbons if I want to.”
I was like, “That’s you being in integrity right there. That’s you being in integrity. One thing that I’m sharing here is that being integrity with yourself is not about the altruistic values that you feel like other people would celebrate you for.
Nick: Because that’s inherently putting other people’s perception of you ahead of your own.
Jimmy: [chuckles] Exactly, exactly. Because we want to be known as hardworking and smart and intelligent and the people who give it their all. There are times where being integrity with yourself is doing absolutely nothing.
Nick: This is why being in integrity with yourself is a moving target.
Nick: Right. Sometimes being in integrity with yourself is treating yourself to a bonbon. Other times, it’s the discipline to say, I need a salad right now. It’s not this one size fits all thing. It’s how do you take the right action in the present moment right now? Like, what do you need right now? Because that’s what matters.
Jimmy: Yeah, I think a really core question that I have on my vision board that I try to ask myself pretty regularly is, where can I be more honest with myself? Because what happens in my internal landscape? I guess I’ll speak for myself. I have no idea what it’s like for other folks. [Chuckles]
Maybe we’ll find out one day. Who knows? I realize that I’m a person who always– am down to give myself the excuse or give myself a break or give myself a whatnot. I’m like, “Mm, I actually do need more self-restraint, and I actually do need more discipline in my life.” And that’s just an example of me being honest to myself.
Nick: And I’m the opposite. This is actually a good juxtaposition because I’m the opposite, where going unchecked, I’m overly disciplined to the point where there’s no room for play, there’s no room for fun, there’s no room for joking and laughter.
I got to check myself and say, “Did I nurture my inner child today? Did I give myself an opportunity to play?” This perfectly highlights that it’s not the same action for each person. Like, you and I, to maintain integrity, need opposite things.
Jimmy: I’m over here playing too much and being like, “All right, I should probably reel it in here.” Which, by the way, that’s why you’re my brother and we have such an amazing dynamic.
I think the point is that not only are we collectively giving ourselves the internal space to navigate this, to make some adjustments, to test out, to try some things, but also, we’re supporting each other and giving ourselves some space and some things like that.
And so, when I talk about the focus on the internal, that’s not to say that support and external factors and all of that don’t matter. I’m just saying that it starts with the internal. When we’re talking about being in alignment or being in integrity or getting right with yourself, I think this honesty thing is so, so, so, important–
Because within my own internal landscape, I’m really navigating what’s a belief? What’s a narrative? What’s a story? What’s this thing that I’m telling myself? Like, something that’s come up for me recently is I realize I have my own belief that I’m not athletic. But then I’ll go out and ski for like five or six hours and whatever. I’m displaying athleticism. I’m like, “Well, where the hell is that from?”
I went through this whole internal thing of realizing, “Oh, well, it’s because of my upbringing. It’s because of this narrative that Asian men are less than or less capable or not as masculine or not as whatever.” I was like, “Oh, over time, I was told that so much that I actually started to believe that.”
In believing that, I started to perpetuate that. In perpetuating that then falls into my relationship with food, my relationship with working out, my relationship with all of that. I recognized very quickly that there was this disconnect.
This disconnect for me in knowing the things that I could do to bring myself back into alignment and then recognizing, “Wow, these narratives and these stories have a really, really strong hold on my internal landscape. That’s obviously a deeper example that I’m sharing.
Our Role in Maintaining Internal Integrity
Nick: Yeah, but it’s important because it touches on this piece that oftentimes we got to try stuff to determine what makes us feel good and doesn’t make us feel good. That’s the hard part because we’re conditioned to not want to fail, to not want to mess up.
That makes it really hard to try things from this sense of curiosity and wonder, of like, “Hmm, I wonder if I toggle this one thing, if that’ll make me feel a little better?” The only way to know is to try.
Part of this process of maintaining internal integrity is trying to shift different aspects of your life and seeing what you respond well to because the interesting thing is the mind can convince us of anything but that the heart feels how it feels. That’s the barometer here is how you feel in your body.
When you’re in integrity with yourself, you feel generally pretty good. And with you’re out of integrity with yourself, you feel generally pretty bad. One of the things that I see a lot of is, we have a tendency to blame others when things go wrong. I’ve learned that we really have to take full responsibility for the way that we feel.
My mentor, my teacher, always asks me this. He goes, “Okay, well, what did you do to create this?” I hate that question when I get it, but it’s always right because just like the saying, “It takes two to tango”, we’re playing an active role in our life, and it doesn’t mean–
that other people aren’t involved, but we’re definitely also playing a role in that. So it’s like, “Well, what did I do to create this situation or this scenario?” That sense of taking radical ownership over your life is required to restore internal integrity.
Jimmy: Yeah, and I want to make an important distinction here because I think that it’s very powerful what you’re talking about, and also knowing that there is a shadow side to that.
What I mean or what’s important for me to share right now is that there are situations and events and things that happen that are just awful. There are things that just happen to you, whether it’s a crime or war, that people go through– [crosstalk]
Jimmy: Abuse, some violation of your mental, your emotional, your physical, all that.
Nick: That’s not what I’m referring to.
Jimmy: That’s not what Nick’s referring to. That sh*t just sucks. Like, you have a right to feel however you feel about those things.
Nick: Victimized in those situations is warranted.
Jimmy: For sure. I think what Nick is talking about is that underneath the surface, for many folks, there can be this process of essentially victimization that puts the emphasis on the external, puts the emphasis on others, puts the emphasis on the situation, puts the emphasis on the condition. Look, I’m also not saying– [crosstalk]
Nick: “I didn’t get good grades because the teacher sucks.”
Jimmy: “It’s because of my boss that did this and because of so and so.” I’m not saying that’s not valid. What I’m saying is you’re the only person who can do anything about it. You’re truly the only one. Look, if your boss is bullying you and giving you sh*t probably is like, actually what’s happening, but then how are you handling it? Are you taking it personal? Are you making assumptions?
Are you allowing that to really get under your skin and dig and dig and dig, like where you then start to build resentment? Then, if you freak out at work, guess what? You’re going to be the one that freaked out at work, not your boss, not your coworker, not– [crosstalk]
Nick: Well, and this brings up another really important point, is that people don’t often want to take the step that’s required to restore integrity. If walking away from that job, even though you love what you do, but you have a totally toxic boss–
That’s a hard thing to do, but it’s probably what’s required to restore integrity. It reminds me of this doctor who did a whole bunch of research on spontaneous remission, and she changed her whole practice. So when you go into her office, she says, “‘Okay, well, what’s the one thing in your life that you need to change to restore peace?” It’s divorced my husband or quit my job or whatever.
She literally gets out her notepad and writes a prescription for that and says, “Okay, this is what you need to go do. [Jimmy laughs] And because somebody has to give you permission to do the hard thing.
Nick: That’s what actually restores this inner balance that’s causing the disease, the illness, the fatigue, the depression, whatever it is. We often don’t want to take that step. If you think back to that episode, we recorded on what is “the work”, what does it mean to do the work?
This is it. This is it. There’s going to be inflection points in life where you have to take really drastic or at least challenging steps to get right with yourself.
Jimmy: I also will add that there are many layers to this. There is the kind of mental exercise that we’re talking about around narratives, belief stories. There’s the emotional aspect. For sure, there’s this underlying current of I would call the spiritual or the soulful aspect.
Also, as we’ve covered in an episode, the body is paying attention and tracking all of this stuff too. If you are feeding your body frustration and anger and pissed off at this and you’re like, “This isn’t right, this is an injustice.” Well, guess what?
You’re going to go and seek those things out because you’re used to that emotional state. You’re used to the chemicals that fire off when you’re in the state of pissed off and whatnot. Just know that for many folks who may feel this stuck-ness, this “Man, I’m feeling a certain way, and I kind of know theoretically what would pull me out of it, but It’s hard to take action and do.”
The main thing that I just want to share is that it’s possible. It’s very, very possible. In order to do that, it requires you to ding, ding, ding, ding, get right with yourself. Meaning, you have to take an honest look under the hood on why these things are showing up in your life the way that they are. And that internal discoveries can take you in a lot of different directions.
“Oh, there’s this thing from my childhood that makes me behave a certain way.” “Oh, there is this traumatic event.” “Oh, there’s actually not this traumatic event, but this is just kind of how my life has been, this social conditioning that I’m not good enough as a woman in the workplace,” or, I’m not good enough as– insert the blank here.
When you do that internal inventory, there’s a sense of, “Okay, but that takes me so far, that gives me an idea on how I got here.” But the other part of the equation is that you’re still there. What do you do with it in any given moment?
How to Recognize if You’re Out of Integrity
Nick: Yeah. The situation is always specific to the person. It varies greatly because we all have different circumstances in life. But I tend to see a couple of common themes.
Boundaries are crossed, other people are put ahead of yourself, or we’re just straight up dishonoring ourselves. Those are the three things that I see the most often when things are out of integrity. We can break those down if you think that that’s helpful.
Jimmy: Well, I just want to drill down into the last part. I think in order to recognize if you are dishonoring yourself, you have to go through an exploration on what is the self, like, who am I truly underneath all this stuff? We as humans have different modes. We have different personas depending on if we’re at home by ourselves, if we’re there with some friends.
Nick: Ram Dass calls these “roles”, your role as a parent, your role as an employee, your role as a brother, your role as a father, whatever it is.
Jimmy: It depends on the social setting, depends on the context. Different parts of you, your roles or your archetypes or your masks that you wear, they’ll emerge. This is a really, really, really, crucial part of this whole conversation that we’re having.
Is that so long as you are trying to seek that true you, that highest and best you that’s in there, you’re already doing a lot of work. That’s a huge, huge, huge step forward because there are folks out there who don’t even question that. They’re like, this is my life. This is what I do.
Nick: It’s autopilot.
Jimmy: This is how I identify myself. This is what I’m told who I am. This is who I believe I am on the inside. If there’s any part of you that’s like, “okay, I’m out of integrity, I’m out of alignment”, I really, really, urge folks to start that process of internal self-discovery, which is not prescriptive.
It’s not something that can be done in a specific timeline, a three-month program, a six-month program. It’s continual, I think, discovery. Only then, can you decide or get a sense on when you are out of integrity with yourself. Sometimes you don’t even know that until you’ve done the thing.
You show up in a meeting and then you leave that. You’re like, “Why did I say those things? Why was I trying so hard to get people to like me in that meeting?” As an example, since you’re talking about the people-pleasing thing.
And then that can start a process and where you are close to that dynamic, you’re in process with and you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to watch this.” Where did that come from? How long have I been doing this? Does it only show up in work meetings?
Does it show up in different areas of my life? Is this people-pleasing because I want them to view me in a certain way? Is this people-pleasing because I feel like I’m lacking in something internally?
You can just see in those five or six questions that I’m spitting out that this can take you on a [laughs] lot of different routes. I think it’s such an important process in coming into integrity with yourself.
Nick: Absolutely. You’re also touching on another piece, which is that only you can determine what that is. Even your facilitator, your peer community, your integration circle, whatever it is, they’re valuable mirrors, but they don’t know what you need.
Only you know what you need. This is one of those situations where we have to rely on ourselves. We can’t rely on external people to bring us back to integrity. This is that radical ownership, radical self-reliance piece of this.
Using External Events as a Measure For Internal Integrity
Jimmy: I also think that it’s worth getting some data around this using life events and circumstances, both when you’re feeling in integrity with yourself and both when you’re feeling out of whack. I think that there’s a lot of important data points that can be gained.
If you’re feeling in integrity with yourself, you’re like, “How did I get here? Are there practices that I’m doing, things that I’m doing? Things that I’m trying, things that I’m tweaking, that’s promoting and making it more accessible for me to be in integrity with myself?”
Conversely, it’s the same thing. When you fall out of it. Let’s say you have that one conversation where you leave not feeling good, you’re pissed off, or you’re unhappy with the results or you’re whatever. It kind of brings you out of this alignment.
Then, that’s also a lot of data. “Well, what event was that? What happened? What was going on with me internally? What got me into this state? Does this highlight something that needs to be addressed?” All of that stuff happens in real-time.
I want to share something that my therapist said that’s really important is that there’s a timeliness to mindfulness tools. What they meant with that was that pausing to reflect, internal questioning, observing, witnessing, all of these internal mechanisms can be helpful here, they’re the most effective when you deploy those immediately.
If you go through the thing and then you follow a pattern, let’s say you had that shi*ty conversation at work, and then you go home in a certain mood, and then that turned into you having an argument with your roommate or your partner or you’re whatever, well, there’s a lot of damage that’s already been done there.
Nick: You could have nipped it in the bud so to speak.
Jimmy: For sure. And If you then try to go back and be like, “Okay, where was it?” Look, I’m not saying that’s not a useful process then, but you’ve kind of missed that sweet spot, I think, also, of these tools that can be used.
Nick: I think that’s an excellent point. The other thing that brings up for me is that this is actually how I see it most often in integration sessions with clients, is that they go and do things that they used to do, that used to bring them joy, used to bring them pleasure, used to bring them happiness.
And they’re like, “Oh sh*t, I actually felt worse after I did that.” Like going out to drinks with my girlfriends– I used to love that. That was part of how we bonded and what we did together and now I actually feel really bad when I go and do that.
This particular client had to basically have a conversation with her girlfriend and say, “Look, I know this is how we used to engage, but it’s not working for me anymore. If you want to maintain our friendship, we have to find a different outlet, because sitting around at the bar is not healthy for me right now.”
Jimmy: Mm-hmm. I have another anecdote with this, with a client in a major city. They’re somewhat well known, they’re very successful, they have this career, they’re kind of a socialite. They’re going to events and going to all this stuff.
They had already known before the experience that that was draining to them. They also realized it was another part of them that fed off of that stuff, fed off of being known and working a room and all this stuff. And after the [chuckles] ceremony, they came out. They’re like, “I’m done with that stuff.” They told me that they were actually going to burn their tuxedo. I wonder if they actually did-
Jimmy: -or not because it sounds like a really expensive tuxedo. I think my point is that there’s a line where once you recognize it, if you re-engage in that stuff, that’s where the radical ownership comes up.
Nick: And it gets really bad really fast.
Jimmy: For sure. And if you’re feeling like, “I can’t do another social event where I got a schmooze and put on this face and all that,” and then you go and do it, you’re going to have this massive internal conflict with yourself in real-time, and it’s probably going to exacerbate.
I think it’s really important here that there’s kind of gradients here. There’s little micro things that you can do in a day to day, in a more ongoing basis that can prime yourself to be in integrity and be in a really solid state throughout the day, throughout your life.
Then there are these major decisions, major events, major things that come up. Those are the ones that are more easily identifiable. Those are the ones where you can really get a sense on, “Oh, I carried myself in this way in this environment or conversation, and now I know that I’m out of whack and I got to get back.”
Those are to a degree easy to see. Whether it’s easy to do something about is different. I think what’s more of the hidden thing is actually in those little micro-ones, those little day-to-day ones.
Because if you make 20 decisions in the day that are on autopilot that has no real bearing or significance on your life, but then those stack up and you’re doing those for months and months, months, and month on end, and then you’re like, “I’ve been a funk–
I don’t know what it is that’s making me feel a certain way. Oh, but by the way, I’m drinking eight cups of coffee a day to get through my day and it’s because I’m trying to overwork.” You see where I’m going with this.
Nick: In both of those examples, here’s the common theme that I pick up on. There’s a conflict between the head and the heart.
Jimmy: For sure.
Nick: The head says, “This is the way I’ve done things. This is what I want.” And the heart goes, “Oh, man, again.” When we’re talking about internal integrity we’re talking about this on a soul level. We’re talking about this at the core of your being, like, the essence of you.
What does it need to feel in balance? For your client, they were over-socializing. It’s not that socializing is bad, but they were overdoing it. It’s like, “Yo, what my soul needs is to chill the eff out.” But mentally, for that person, that can be really hard.
Jimmy: It also came with a lot of self-sacrifices. It also came a lot with that client really needing to put up that persona.
Jimmy: They then realized, “Oh, that’s really damaging to my actual self here.” Listen, folks, this is tricky. What we’re talking about is not an easy process.
Nick: But I think it’s essential. I don’t want to-[crosstalk]
Nick: -go through integration and not do this.
Jimmy: I completely agree. We talked a little bit about, okay, how do I sense when I’m in alignment or integrity with myself? How do I sense when I’m not? I think that there’s a lot of different ways and iterations on what that could look like, depending on the person.
We talked about, “Well, what do I do with that now?” What I hear you saying is, “Well, you got to experiment, and you got to test and you got to tweak little things, and you got to try.”
I think having that real, honest internal inventory is also really, really important to know what is it that gets me more in alignment? Do I judge that part of myself? Do I even allow that in my life? Do I have a belief around this? Do I have a narrative around this?
Do I have a story around this? Like, where did this come from? Is this a new need that I have that I maybe didn’t have 10 years ago, depending on my life and circumstance and you know whatnot now?
I think a part of that also comes with this real internal landscape and discovery on what are my values? What are my principles? What are the nonnegotiable boundaries that I have? And what these other boundaries are maybe more semipermeable, if I will?
The other thing that I really hear you saying is the radical ownership piece, which is, how much of this am I blaming on other folks or circumstances and experiences? How much of this is me taking ownership?
I think the point that we’re making earlier is it probably could be a little column A and could be a little column B. But at the end of the day, in order for you to do something about it, you have to take radical ownership over it.
I’m trying my best to kind of summarize because I know that this is a very– it’s an in-depth topic and I’m sure that we could talk about it for hours. We’re trying to give folks a digestible, I think, conversation and format here. What else do you think is worth talking about around this topic?
Nick: I think we’ve done a pretty good job, at least for a primer on what all of this is and what it looks like. I think the examples are helpful and so are the tools.
Jimmy: Yeah. In summary here, you can do as much work with psychedelics as you want. You can have amazing peak experiences, you can do all this mindfulness and somatic practice and all of this stuff.
None of it matters if you are not honest with yourself and if you are not in integrity with yourself in whatever way that means. I hope that’s helpful for our listeners. Thanks for following along [chuckles] with us on this little bit of a–
I think we had an interesting dialogue and conversation. We always try to balance but like do we go too heady here or did we try to stay on the ground and keep it practical? We tried our best to hold the middle ground here for folks.
That takes us to the end of this episode. Thanks for listening. You can download episodes of the Psychedelic Passage podcast anywhere you find your podcast. You can go to cannabisradio.com.
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