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An Honest Recap of MAPS Psychedelic Science Conference

An honest recap of MAPS’ Psychedelic Science conference is offered by our co-hosts Jimmy Nguyen and Nicholas Levich. After attending the event, they compiled a list of key takeaways which they firmly believe the public should be informed about.

As the largest modern gathering of psychedelic enthusiasts comes to close, our hosts open up about the disappointing motivations that seem to be running this space. They describe the different types of people in attendance and the personal and financial interests that appear to pervade the sanctity of their psychedelic offerings. 

Is the psychedelic space really on the rise, or are we witnessing the exploitation of yet another natural medicine to appease American consumerist ideals? How can you tell if a company is in it for the profit or if their intentions are based on genuine care for their clients’ wellbeing?

From BIPOC and indigenous fetishizing to open drug abuse and proprietary scams, Nicholas and Jimmy share eye opening experiences that reshaped their perspective on the current state of psychedelic medicine in America. 

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Episode 50 – An Honest Recap of MAPS’ Psychedelic Science Conference

Nick: Welcome to the Psychedelic Passage podcast. My name is Nick Levich. I am here with my cohost, Jimmy Nguyen. Thank you for joining us today. 

We are just getting back to our respective homes after being at the MAPS Psychedelic Science Conference of 2023, which was, I think by all accounts, the biggest psychedelic conference that has unfolded yet historically. 

There was over 12,000 attendees and I can safely say that it was a lot. There was a lot going on there. I think the real intention behind today’s episode is to give you all an inside look as to what we experienced while being at the conference-

As well as just chat through some of our key takeaways, questions, things that came up for us, and just allow any of you who maybe didn’t get a chance to attend first hand a little bit of an inside scoop of what’s going on here. 

So, that being said, I’m curious, Jim, what was maybe one or two of your key takeaways as we have been decompressing and integrating from the last week? 

Jimmy: Yeah. Thanks, Nick. During your introduction, I realized I was waving at the camera, and that we largely have listeners [chuckles] and not viewers. So, I hope that all of our listeners know that I’m waving and saying hello, and I hope everybody is doing well. 

And yes, it was the largest event I would say in modern era. They were touting this to be the largest psychedelic-oriented conference, about 12,000 people. 

And yeah, maybe short of what was happening in Eleusis, many, many hundred years ago or maybe some of theories that some of those old Greek festivals and things were also fueled by psychedelics. This might be the only other time– 

Or, maybe a really fun show at Red Rocks where people are altered as well. So, I just wanted to pay [chuckles] homage that there likely have been other large scale gatherings related to psychedelics, but this certainly is the largest conference that has revolved around psychedelics. 

Our First Impressions of PS23

[00:02:16] Jimmy: When you ask about the one or two takeaways, I think first and foremost, it was a lot. I think that having that many people gathered together with various histories with psychedelics, various opinions, various angles in which they look at psychedelics–

Whether they have a project, or an organization, or a business, or whether they were just there as a psychedelic enthusiast, I think that there was quite a bit. When you look at some of the more formalized tracks that they had as far as talks and things–

There were science tracks, and business tracks, and legal tracks, and what they were deeming more about community, and cultural tracks. And so, it was just clear to me that–

You and I sit in our own little world and view psychedelics through a lens, a very focused lens on how do we help psychedelic interested people get support that they need. What I realized is there’s just so many different angles in which one could look at psychedelics. 

I think that speaks to two things. One is the cool intersectionality, like that psychedelics has this ability to bring people together. 

I say that with an asterisk in my mind, because also at the same time, what I realize is that, and maybe this was really emphasized at the conference is that there is also a lot of separation. 

There’s also a lot of varied opinions and folks who believe that their worldview is the correct way to think about psychedelics and maybe others worldviews aren’t. And so, it was this interesting juxtaposition for me where I’m like–

“Oh, it’s really cool that everybody’s coming together for psychedelics.” And then there was this really distinct thing of like, I don’t think everybody here is here for the same reason either. 

Nick: Oh, definitely not. I would sum this up as like, it was the full yin and yang. You got the full spectrum, the uber light and the dark, dark shadow like-

Jimmy: The light and the shadow.

Nick: -everything in between. I, for sure, witnessed a lot of ego, unchecked ego. I witnessed just open drug abuse is really the only way that I could describe it, and there was definitely just some interesting stuff happening in the midst of this environment. 

Perhaps, to bring a little more tangibility to those who are listening, there were Wall Street bros there, business owners, entrepreneurs, people wanting to enter the space, growers, facilitators, therapists. 

Jimmy: Nutraceutical companies, harm reduction companies, ancillary support companies, people who are interested in direct supply chain, people who are interested in non-psychedelic ways of eliciting altered states of consciousness

There was this whole festival side setting to it where there was installation art, and psychedelic art, and all of this stuff. So, it was a lot. [laughs] 

Nick: That was the theme of the week. It was overwhelming, there was lots of stimulation, there was almost too much going on to be able to do it all. And so, I think attendees had to be fairly selective as to what they were there for and–

What they were going to prioritize, because it was just a couple of days long and there’s 11 different tracks and all kinds of speakers and things. One thing that I think we both acknowledged is that nobody knows what the hell they’re doing right now. 

Jimmy: That became very clear to me at this conference. 

Nick: It was a free for all. 

Jimmy: [laughs] Yeah. I’m not here to say that it’s because there’s unintelligent people in the room. I think what is clear to me is that there is this excitement around psychedelics–

And in that excitement, a lot of people have a lot of ideas and opinions on what should happen with psychedelics, and where things should go, and in what little area or lens that they focus on. 

You’re talking about this light and shadow or this yin and yang. I just felt like there was a lot of posturing at this conference. There was a lot of posturing of people saying like–

“I have a proprietary method,” or, “I have a formulation of a certain thing that is tried and true, and I have this thing that works, and I have that thing that works.” 

There was almost this desire to prove to people that their formulation of a microdose or their method for facilitation and space holding is what’s up. 

That’s like, “Hey, we know, this is our professionality and our specialty, and we know where–” When you look at the arc of the psychedelic landscape, I’m very careful to call it an industry, because an industry denotes that there are set standards and protocols and things like that. 

We have to remember that MDMA is still in Phase 3 trials. We have to remember that there’s only two states that have attempted to create decrim and regulatory models. They’re not even in effect yet. 

And so, I think that it was somewhat of a reminder, is this dissonance around the excitement of psychedelics versus where we’re actually at, which I think is not as developed and not as known as people report to believe.

The Soft White Underbelly of the Psychedelic “Industry”

[00:08:18] Nick: To me, this is just the inherent challenge that comes with a whole bunch of uncertainty as to how this whole thing is going to unfold. I genuinely felt like, even though nobody knows what’s happening, they’re trying to do their best. 

Everyone’s trying to figure it out and predict like, “Okay, if it’s going to go this way, maybe I fit in here,” or “If it’s going to go that way, maybe I fit in over here.” There’s a lot of people who want to get involved. 

One thing that was very clear to me is there is no shortage of interest, but I think there’s a lot of confusion as to how to get involved, what’s legal, what’s not, which ways are going to be here around for a while, which ones are going to be short-term plays. 

There’s so many different ways to look at this emerging space and different ways to get involved. I don’t know that anyone’s got the ultimate answer, ultimate playbook. I think it’s just a bunch of people all doing their best in earnest to figure it out. 

Jimmy: To your point, it’s not from a lack of trying. When I arrived at the conference and spent time there to look around– 

If you look at the metadata of psychedelic interest from an investor standpoint, we’re talking about people investing in psychedelic businesses, it’s dipped over the past 8 months to 12 months.

When I got to the conference, I was like, “Oh, it makes sense,” because how do you know what the right and viable model is? Or, if somebody’s telling you they have a tried-and-true proprietary thing, how do you affirm that? 

And so, one thing that I found was interesting is that there is this kind of talk about psychedelics being separate and psychedelics being different. But I also saw a lot of people there treating psychedelics like cannabis 2.0

I actually find that really fascinating because I would ask, “Why? Why when you look at cannabis operators and their tax issues?” When sometimes they’re effectively getting taxed 90% of gross profit because of 280E status. 

Why would you follow the Colorado cannabis model when you see that in Colorado, cannabis products and the consumerism around that cause dispensaries and organizations to race to the bottom, as far as price–

When you see that probably 50% of the cannabis operators in the Colorado industries have either sold or gone bankrupt or have changed hands. My sense is that, we say that cannabis paved the way for psychedelics to operate. 

I think that a lot of people are overlooking a lot of the pitfalls and the traps of cannabis. And so, I just had this funny feeling that a part of what suppliers, and finance folks, and whatever were trying to replicate the cannabis model, because it was a boon market. 

It was something that had a little bit of a flash in the pan, and some people were able to make a lot of money off of it, but it really wasn’t a structure that was super stable for the long-term. 

Nick: I would also say that the use patterns are totally different. 

Jimmy: Mm-hmm. 

Nick: There’s a whole cohort of people that use cannabis daily. And then when you think about something like psilocybin, you’re talking about, what, one to four experiences in the whole year and the actual product cost there is maybe $25? 

The product is not where the money is in this space, at least from my perspective. It’s all actually rooted in the professional service. That’s what people really need and crave. 

Jimmy: Yeah, there was this funny insertion of consumerism into the conference, where you and I have this conversation. We found it striking because MAPS in their organization that does the clinical trials–

They’re a nonprofit, they have the public benefit, the MAPS public benefit corporate– They have these different subsidiaries. But I was looking at that and I was like, “This seems very for profit.”

Nick: For sure.

Jimmy: Very for profit. I think that there then was this uncomfortability in a lot of folks that I spoke to about whether that’s in balance or not. And so, it was just these funny little subtextual things that I saw were pretty interesting.

Nick: The ticket to attend was $800. [crosstalk] 

Jimmy: It was Monday through Friday during the week. Like, who’s going to be able to take time off of work and pay that and get a hotel? [crosstalk] 

Nick: And travel. Yeah. 

Jimmy:And fly there. Yeah. [laughs] 

Nick: And the thing is, I want to be clear that I don’t have anything negative to say about MAPS. It was just interesting to see all these different data points and forces at play. 

I think what you and I are articulating is that it just resulted in a little bit of confusion like, what’s actually going on here. 

Jimmy: Yeah, and this is Nick and I’s perspective and opinion and the way that we viewed the conference. There are probably many people who found all of the inspiration and magic and learning at the conference. 

There are many people who got what they needed out of a powerful talk or an important workshop or whatnot. And so, we’re not discrediting, I don’t believe, all of the amazing things that likely happened at that conference. 

What I think is highlighted for us is that, that also comes with a lot of things that are somewhat unspoken, somewhat unaddressed. Really, it was almost like the first time where I got to see the underbelly of the psychedelic renaissance, the psychedelic movement that will save the world. 

I saw this funny meme where MAPS, in one of their talks, I think it might have been Rick Doblin where he said like, “Net zero trauma by 2070.” I think that that’s really rosy.

And then I saw this meme online that said like, “Late-stage capitalism, the oppression of queer and BIPOC folks, familial trauma,” all of this stuff. And then how that sits in juxtaposition to net zero trauma in 2070. 

And so, I think this interesting packaging up of what the “psychedelic movement” should be and isn’t at the same time. And then what I sensed was that the participants who were there aren’t all aligned to that belief, or that vision, or that whatever is set out for them. 

I think that there’s a lot more difference of opinion actually than there is– Maybe it’s one to one, but there was just as much difference of opinion and dissonance as there was congruence, and unity, and agreement, and shared beliefs. 

Nick: Yeah, it’s interesting because I also picked up on the fact that there was a lot of focus on how psychedelics can help us, and heal the world, and all this stuff. 

Very few people were actually talking about the risks, downsides, and potential pitfalls of implementing some of these systems and structures, so that accessibility of both products and services is a part of our culture and our society. 

Jimmy: Mm-hmm. 

Nick: There was just this part of me that felt like, “Are we the only people that are focused on some of these things as far as helping folks navigate the space, journeyer advocacy, facilitator vetting?”

Jimmy: Harm reduction. Besides DanceSafe and Zendo,-

Nick: Zendo. Right.

Jimmy: I didn’t see many other organizations that were– Q tests and some of those things. But I really didn’t see a lot in that realm. Yeah, you’re totally right. 

This helps me to reshape what I was saying earlier where psychedelic cheerleadership has a potential downfall of ignoring the important issues that need to be addressed. 

You’re right, because we sat there, we’re like, we only had one conversation on advocacy if a journeyer or a client had an issue with the facilitator. One conversation out of the hundreds of conversations that you and I had, and the 12,000 people that were there. 

I had way more conversations about, here’s my microdosing stack, here’s how this Vibro-Acoustic map, or this light thing is a new proprietary method or something like that.

And so, it was just a really interesting amalgamation to see what people are focused on. It was actually a little bit concerning for me. 

Speaking Out About the Cold Hard Truth

[00:18:03] Nick: I felt the same way. Anyone that’s listened to our past episodes knows that we’ve effectively blown the whistle on part of what’s going on in Oregon. Colorado is about to follow suit. This isn’t from a place of us saying that we’ve got it all figured out. 

I think it’s coming from a place of protectiveness. We care about journeyers, clients, folks who are seeking services. We’re invested in them having positive outcomes–

But if we don’t address some of these potential pitfalls head on, and we just pretend it’s not happening or sweep it under the rug or whatever the case is, we’re not going to solve any of it. 

One thing that dawned on me is that Psychedelic Passage as an org, it is just ahead of the curve simply because we’ve been doing this since 2019, and have inherently had to address some of these issues. 

And so, once again, this isn’t like a superiority thing. It’s just like, some of these problems aren’t even on the industry’s radar yet, because there isn’t really an industry. 

Jimmy: Yeah, sometimes, these issues and things come up when the rubber hits the road, when it’s actually in practice, when you’re actually trying to implement your system or your methods or your skill sets. 

And so, I totally agree. What comes up for me is that, you and I are almost trying to put up our bat signal to be like, “Is anybody else seeing these things that we’re seeing?” And largely it was a no. 

Nick: For now. 

Jimmy: Yeah, for now. I hope that the more vocal we can be, the more honest we can be, the more that we can look at the past couple of years of the sandbox that we’ve been in with Psychedelic Passage, and the ways that we can communicate and learn. 

And another takeaway was how much we live in a silo, how much we live within our own organization versus how much of this gets to spark a conversation in the psychedelic landscape. 

When I think about psychedelics, I believe that they are a spiritual sacrament and also, I believe that they are a really, really powerful tool. With any powerful tool, you have to learn how to use it. 

Nobody’s going to start off with a table saw without somebody teaching them how to use it without the right goggles, and gear, and the kill switch, and all that stuff and closed toed shoes, and making sure you don’t lose a finger. 

And with people who’ve been using a table saw for 20 years in their life, they could still lose a piece of their thumb. Even a hammer, like a hammer. [laughs] If you use that thing incorrectly, you’re going to hurt yourself. 

Nick: Yeah, that was not being discussed. That’s the one thing that I think we just want to articulate is like, there was very little discussion around any of that. 

I still think the industry uses this whole term of psychedelic-assisted therapy as this catch-all for intentional psychedelic use, but at no point did I hear about who’s actually providing the services, how it actually works, what to expect, who’s qualified. 

Those are the types of questions that you and I have been very focused on. I just don’t know that the movement as a whole is there yet. 

Jimmy: I think that there’s this narrative going around that somehow somebody’s figured out how to do psychedelics 100% safely. 

What is very clear to you and I is that, like I said, with any wieldy tool, with any powerful tool, there are ways to use it and conduct yourself safely. And there are a lot of ways to do so unsafely as well.

If harm reduction exists, that means that there is harm to be reduced. And so, I feel like everybody’s just moved to this place on like, “We got the right model. We got the right thing. An instance of facilitator abuse will never happen. Psychological harm will never happen.” 

In reality, all of that needs to be woven in and addressed because psychedelics by nature are nonspecific amplifiers. They bring up all of the stuff which can include trauma, which can include a sense of unsafety, which can include psychological distress. 

Now the question for folks who are our listeners are, are those tools for us to move towards healing? I actually don’t think many people are– They’ve skipped over that whole part [laughs] almost. It’s not like, let me sell you this thing, because there was so much stuff. Honestly, like you said, there’s so much crap just being sold there. 

Nick: I want touch on this for a second. 

Jimmy: Yeah, go ahead. Please. 

The Intersection of Psychedelics & Consumerism: Necessity or Overkill?

[00:23:20] Nick: I want touch on this for a second, because I use the word “crap” because that’s literally what I thought it was. [Jimmy laughs] I have nothing against these companies, but it reeked of consumerism. 

It was this whole thing of like, what product can we add to this industry that really just requires nature and community to supposedly enhance it all? But I think what really rubbed me the wrong way was like, are psychedelics not enough? 

Do we need VR goggles integrated into these experiences? Do we need vibrating mats? Do we need strobe lights going off? There was just stuff. The thing is, it was all marketed as being the next big thing, like, the next essential item to integration

Once again, these are all tools. I’m not saying they’re inherently bad, but it felt like everyone’s getting a little ahead of themselves here. 

We’re trying to figure out how to even work with something like mushrooms in an intentional way within our societal construct, and simultaneously layering on all of these, what at least appeared to me as gimmicky things to upsell people on. 

I’m like, how necessary is all this? That was the question I kept walking away with. It feels like we’re trying to overcomplicate things. Like, how necessary is all this extra stuff? 

Jimmy: Yeah, it’s this irony that I was identifying. What you said helps me to formalize it a little bit more, where everybody, likely everybody, who was at that conference–

Was there because they were touched or influenced by plant medicines, fungi medicines, psychedelic medicines in some way. And so, they give credit to the psychedelic.

In the same breath, they’re like, “Here’s how we can enhance your experience with this thing,” or this thing, or this nutraceutical, or this Vibro-Acoustic mapped, or this proprietary method on integration, or this integration.” 

It’s just such a deep irony where it’s the politically correct thing to say that it’s thanks to the medicine, and then you’re just not acting like that. 

You’re adding all this stuff on top, all of these bells and whistles I hear you saying to a process that we don’t even have the basics figured out yet, and here we are trying to add a whole bunch of stuff onto it. 

Nick: Exactly. At one point, you looked at me while we were there and go, “I don’t think half to three quarters of these companies are even going to be around in the next couple of years.” [crosstalk] 

Jimmy: I still don’t. I was very skeptical going into this conference because of what we’re talking about here today. It’s actually pretty affirmed in my own lived experience of what I see there. 

I think what I mean about this posturing is that every organization, because they were trying to put up this facade that they got it figured out, they’re trying to instill confidence in their whatever, their method, their service, their product, or their whatnot. 

It was almost the smokescreen to denote their longevity. It was almost this like, “Hey, because we have it figured out, and because we’re trusted by the spirit of the medicine that our truth is going to shine through.” Well, Synthesis Retreat is gone now. 

Nick: They had closed 11 offices. 

Jimmy: Field Trip got big blows to their offices. Those were institutions where people were saying, “We feel Field Trip is doing it right per ketamine route. We feel Synthesis is doing it right per training and per retreat style-oriented organizations.” 

What I want to share with folks is that, it can look the most packaged up, it can look the most beautifully branded and designed, and that organization might be struggling financially. 

That organization might not be paying their trainers and their practitioners. That organization might have taken out a huge loan to start their first round of nutraceuticals that are supposed to help and enhance your MDMA experience. 

So, this was the whole thing that I was saying about like, you know how I always say in psychedelic facilitation and space holding, that sacred space holding is the prerequisite, that’s required. 

But in order to last a long time in this industry, you also have to have good client care, good business practices, good communication. You need to know how to do accounting, you need to know how to do taxes, you need to know how to connect. 

So, there’s all these things that are layered on top of it. It’s the same for these organizations. A good idea only goes so far, can you then find good people around you to implement that idea? Can you fund yourself, or get conscious funding for you to be able to drive your thing forward?

And so, I’m not saying that it’s because these companies deserve to fail. What I’m saying is that it’s a lot more complex than you think to get a good sound idea up into the culturally accepted ecosphere of how psychedelics work. 

I really don’t think that half of those companies will be around in three years to five years. I also think that there will be a lot of companies that will emerge. 

Where Does the Psychedelic Landscape Have Room for Improvement?

[00:29:31] Jimmy: We probably also don’t have time to get into all of this, but I just got to say that there was a lot of BIPOC and indigenous fetishizing at that conference. There was a lot of people propping up indigenous and BIPOC looking folks. 

And also, I don’t think really including them in collaborative conversations like, I’ve shared this with you personally, I’m Vietnamese by descent. I make no claim to be native. I do have brown skin and long hair. 

There were so many people who were coming up to me, bowing to me, giving me thanks, thanking me for the plant medicine work that I’m doing. I’m sitting here in like street clothes. So, if I’m getting that, I’m like, “Oh, my goodness, what’s that like for other people here?” 

So, some of that was really uncomfortable. And then I also remind myself that people don’t know better. They don’t have a model on how to integrate and include voices. 

They don’t have a model on how to compliment somebody on their heritage and lineage without assuming their heritage and lineage and without it feeling fetishizing. That’s the word that I’ll use. And so, it was just a really interesting mix up of things. 

I know that you were circling around the profitability of the conference, but also you were saying like, is this industry an industry that can self-sustain itself? That’s what I heard you asking during the conference. I wonder if you have any thoughts around that too. 

Nick: It’s definitely just a question that I’ve pondered like, is this an industry–? It’s a very amorphous industry– well, and to your point maybe not even an industry yet, but [Jimmy laughs] an amorphous emerging potential industry. 

But it functions so differently than traditional businesses in this greater capitalistic system. And perhaps, I have more questions than answers, but I ask myself like, who is going to succeed? Who is going to emerge? 

Will the high returns that investors seek even be possible? We know for certain that a healthy population is not profitable. That’s why our healthcare system is built the way it is.

So, there is a part of me that goes, “Well, by the time everyone that’s seeking an experience has had a couple, are they going to need any of us?” I don’t know the answer. 

Ultimately, I think community and professional support are always going to be in demand, but there is definitely this– Once the training wheels are off and people know how to work with these substances and they’ve got an understanding of how it all works, what is the need going to be then? 

Jimmy: Yeah, unless you are in a society that constantly retraumatizes and retriggers you. 

Nick: Totally valid. 

Jimmy: So, what I’ve seen here is that psychedelics are touted as this thing that can heal once and for all, net zero trauma by 2070. But what I actually see what’s happening is that psychedelics become this band-aid. 

Psychedelics become this band-aid for us to get retraumatized, get retriggered. We see what’s happening in the climate, we see what’s happening in our political environment–

We see what’s happening in our healthcare environment, we see what’s happening in our mental health world, we see what’s happening within our family systems. You pick any one of those things. And any of that can retrigger you. 

And then it’s like, “Oh, well, just take this microdose every day and you’ll have more emotional and stress resilience to deal with the retrauma-ing and the retriggering–“

Nick: That’s systematic. 

Jimmy: It’s systematic. Exactly. And so, it’s so hilarious to me that psychedelics have this built in thing to be anti-consumerism, anti-capitalist. Meaning, you don’t need a lot of it to grow a year supply, if you’re talking about psilocybin. 

It has this potential to really get you to the root of real healing, whatever that means for you. And then at the same time, it’s like putting a round peg through a square hole. 

It’s then being put on these stilts of capitalism, consumerism, quick fixes, good stories. This romanticized version, and it’s like, yeah, that doesn’t fit, and yet, people are trying to make it fit. That’s the summation.

Nick: We felt that way just trying to start our org. 

Jimmy: Mm-hmm.

Nick: The amount of discussions we had around how do we structure this? How does pricing work? We’re trying to figure out how to infuse humanity, accessibility, and all these things into a system that’s inherently bifurcated, inherently status oriented, inherently divisive.

It’s not easy. And so, I think that’s my point about all these companies in this space are going to have to figure out how to make this work, and not just for the short term, but for the long haul. 

Because one of the things I saw very clearly is that, some of these companies are only going to be profitable while all these things are illegal. The second the legal status changes, there’s going to be a whole cohort of companies that are just done. 

Jimmy: Mm-hmm. For us, we always pose this question of, can we be a heart-centered, human-centered organization that in this culture and space and time is in an environment of consumerism–

An environment of capitalism, an environment that doesn’t value healing and mental health? We have to ride that juxtaposition all the time. How do we live in both? 

And so, I know we’re getting down to the end of the episode, but I just can’t help but think that there’s a lot of this excitement, there’s a lot of this romanticism, there’s the psychedelic halo effect that I was talking about a few episodes ago. 

That’s not necessarily bad, but I have this fear that it actually overlooks the work and the infrastructure that actually needs to be done to find ways in which psychedelics can integrate into our society in a meaningful way. I don’t think anybody’s got that figured out. You and I, for sure, don’t, but-. 

Nick: No, I– [crosstalk] 

Jimmy: -we’re trying our best. [laughs] 

Nick: I’m certain that it’s going to be a messy ride from here. It’s going to be messy, it’s going to be chaotic, it’s going to have ups and downs, it’s going to be a wild experience for anyone that’s looking to get involved here. 

I think it’s going to require resilience, adaptability, constantly checking yourself. This is going to be a wild ride. 

My hope is that, despite the rocky nature of this whole industry or movement coming online that we’re able to do this in a healthy, meaningful way that actually helps people get the care they seek. And so, we’ll see how it all unfolds. It’s honestly a big mystery for everybody. 

Jimmy: I’m willing to roll the dice. So, let’s see where it goes. 

Nick: Is there anything else that you want to share before we– [crosstalk] 

Jimmy: No, I think that was– Yeah, just thank you for our audience, for always listening to us rant and we hope that in our passionate rants that there’s one kernel of value out there for you. [crosstalk] 

Nick: I think one thing that I know for certain is that everyone’s trying to paint like a mental image of what this landscape looks like. 

And so, my hope is that, by having these more just conversational discussions around what we’re seeing, that we help others formulate this kind of like 3D map of what’s going on, so that you can decide how you want to look at it. 

Jimmy: Another data point. Another perspective. 

Nick: Exactly. Because I recognize that not everyone knows, and there’s a lot of curiosity. And so, if nothing else, I hope that it helps you start to formulate your own mental image of what’s going on here. 

So, that brings us to the end of our episode for today. Download and stream all episodes of the Psychedelic Passage podcast on all major streaming platforms, whether it’s Apple Podcast, Amazon, Spotify, or wherever else you choose to get your podcast. 

If you like the show, please rate and review. Share with your friends, if you think that they would benefit from a listen as well, and we look forward to seeing you all next week.

Talk to a Psychedelic Professional

It shouldn’t come as a surprise that hyper-consumerism is trying to leech its way into the psychedelic landscape, as it does with everything else. It will continue to absorb anything in its path if it’s allowed, which is why we believe in speaking up, even when it feels like we’re the only ones.

Here at Psychedelic Passage, our approach puts the journeyer first. We empower you to book a consultation with one of our concierges to learn more about us and get connected with our network of pre-vetted psychedelic facilitators. 

For our more independent psychonauts, we invite you to visit our resources page, where we answer popular questions and discuss all things psychedelia. Consumerism is fleeting, and what’s important is that humanity outlasts all else. As always, stay safe, be mindful, and radiate love!

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Take the first step and book a consultation call with us today. We'll walk you through every step of the process after getting to know you and your unique situation.

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At Psychedelic Passage, we offer professional 1-on-1 guidance and companionship on your journey of healing. We simply can't sit back and let Americans continue to sit in silent suffering trying to battle mental health issues within a broken health care system, all while knowing that effective alternatives exist. We stand for the sacred, at-home, ceremonial use of psychedelics for consciousness exploration, which we believe to be a fundamental human right.


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